I just read on TireRack - using anitsieze on wheel lugs

hcoles · 09-22-2008, 05:35 AM

sorry if this has been thrashed to death on another thread.. mod. move over there if yes.

I put anitsieze on my studs and wheel nuts - haven't noticed any issues - I take my tires on and off frequently compared to the average driver.

I see this on the TireRack website...

NOTE: We suggest removing the wheel and applying a thin coating of "antiseize" around the axle hubs to help prevent rust and permit easier removal when it’s time to rotate your tires. Do not apply "antiseize" to the lug hardware or studs

john walker's workshop · 09-22-2008, 05:49 AM

they're talking about steel (rust). we know how aluminum lugs can bind to aluminum wheels, and how the lugs get torn up eventually, going on and off the steel studs.

hcoles · 09-22-2008, 05:55 AM

agreed.. something for sure needed for AL nuts on steel studs... I use steel nuts now and have my nice black AL ones in a bag somewhere... I use copper anti-sieze on everything - reduce wear, reduce any rust, provide nice constant torque - nothing has come off on the track or street....

chrisp · 09-22-2008, 05:58 AM

I think the issue is torque specs are determined (unless noted) dry...well actually with a light machining oil (I believe) and when you add grease, anti-seize, etc 95 ft lbs (for a Porsche at least) will actually stretch the stud beyond what it was designed for. 95 ft lbs without anti-seize is lower tension on the stud than 95 ft lbs with anti-seize. So many folks are using some sort of lube to prevent rust and I don't think anyone is having an issue.

MatthewBrum · 09-22-2008, 06:03 AM

It seems they are talking about how aluminum wheels get stuck on the steel hub flange and then you can't get the wheel off. I've had cars where you remove all lug nuts and you have to take a peice of wood and hammer to unstick the rim from from hub..

hcoles · 09-22-2008, 06:03 AM

agree - bolt tension is more with same torque and various types of lube... I doubt the increase in tension will over stress the bolt...the situation is helped somewhat because the total stress on the bolt is a combination of tension and torque... the tension is more but the torque is less. The science of this may not to totally straightforward.

javadog · 09-22-2008, 06:15 AM

This has been discussed a zillion times here. The short answer is that Porsche specified a certain torque value for the lug nuts based upon the assumption that you would be using what they recomended for the "anti-seize." They indicated in a technical bulletin the you should use Castrol Optimoly Paste (HT, if I recall correctly.)

Different lubes, or none at all, will give a different bolt stretch at the same indicated torque value. You might have too much, you might have not enough, you'll never know. Since it is so easy to do what they recommend, I wonder why so many people choose to go their own way.

JR

hcoles · 09-22-2008, 06:18 AM

JR - ok thanks that pretty much nails down what to do with the stock AL nuts... just wondering re. steel on steel - I guess I'll do a search.

javadog · 09-22-2008, 06:36 AM

Keep in mind that when using a steel nut with a Fuchs wheel, you have an area of steel to aluminum contact, so it's not just steel on steel. I can't help you there.

JR

hcoles · 09-22-2008, 06:38 AM

yes I realize this and usually put a very small swipe of anti-sieze around there. sometimes I see a bit of AL flakes coming off still so I need to watch out

MatthewBrum · 09-22-2008, 06:41 AM

It seems they are talking about how aluminum wheels get stuck on the steel hub flange and then you can't get the wheel off. I've had cars where you remove all lug nuts and you have to take a peice of wood and hammer to unstick the rim from from hub..

hcoles · 09-22-2008, 06:45 AM

if you read - TR mentions both... anti - sieze on hubs/etc. and then mention "dry" for lug nuts... the interesting thing is I consider TireRack to be some sort of non trivial source.. they can be wrong or maybe just wrong interms of people like us that use torque wrenches and take the tires on and off frequently.

rick-l · 09-22-2008, 06:50 AM

The 84-89 Bentley says

Quote:

Lubricate wheel lugs and shoulders with Optimoly. Porsche part Number 000 043 020 00

The factory manual says something similar.

hcoles · 09-22-2008, 06:50 AM

tcar - there we have it.. a clear controversy - the question is not resolved.

Formerly Steve Wilkinson · 09-22-2008, 07:04 AM

I always put plenty of anti-sieze on the wheel hub and the area that it contacts on the wheel. If you've ever tried to get unlubricated snow tires/wheels off after a long winter and you finally have to resort to a sledgehammer, you'd do it too.

hcoles · 09-22-2008, 07:08 AM

I don't think there is any controversy re. putting something on the hub/mouting ring surfaces. It is a good idea. There is no controversy re. putting anti-sieze on AL nuts on steel lugs... this is closed due to Porsche written bulletin. The remaining controversy is using anti-sieze on steel nuts on steel lugs.

Gunter · Gunter's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisp

I think the issue is torque specs are determined (unless noted) dry...well actually with a light machining oil (I believe) and when you add grease, anti-seize, etc 95 ft lbs (for a Porsche at least) will actually stretch the stud beyond what it was designed for. 95 ft lbs without anti-seize is lower tension on the stud than 95 ft lbs with anti-seize. So many folks are using some sort of lube to prevent rust and I don't think anyone is having an issue.

NO, no, no.

Please, we've been through this a few times.

In industrial applications, torque specs are always "WET" meaning: with lube, unless specified "DRY".
Thread-locker qualifies as "WET".

So, when you read 95 ft-lbs for lug nuts, it's with lube, not just on the threads, but also on the mating surfaces like the concave/convex area of the lug nuts.

If lube is not used, the right torque cannot be obtained because steel-on-steel, or metal-on-metal, has too much friction.

Using a little grease on the mating surface of an Alu-wheel to a steel hub is good practice to prevent corrosion.

Gunter · Gunter's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by hcoles

I don't think there is any controversy re. putting something on the hub/mouting ring surfaces. It is a good idea. There is no controversy re. putting anti-sieze on AL nuts on steel lugs... this is closed due to Porsche written bulletin. The remaining controversy is using anti-sieze on steel nuts on steel lugs.

Porsche didn't exclude steel lug nuts in their bulletin.

Go with lube if you like your lugs and wheels and check the torque more often.

Example for torque with lube are the head studs: The barrel nuts with 24-25 ft-lbs don't come lose, the studs usually pull out.

hcoles · 09-22-2008, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gunter

Porsche didn't exclude steel lug nuts in their bulletin.

ok, good point..

Go with lube if you like your lugs and wheels and check the torque more often.

Example for torque with lube are the head studs: The barrel nuts with 24-25 ft-lbs don't come lose, the studs usually pull out.

another very good point - anti-sieze doesn't cause things to come loose...
this is starting to look closed to me - use anti-sieze for steel on steel on the lugs and steel on AL curved surface.

if the go dry crowd wants to continue discussion - please provide references other than it worked for me

RWebb · RWebb's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcar

Tire Rack specifically says "Do not apply "antiseize" to the lug hardware or studs"

Don't put it on lug nuts or studs. Period.

They are talkng about the wheel hub/base, not the lugs.

you can follow theit generic instructions that are NOT for your car

OR you can do what the highly paid engineers at P AG explicitlt tell you TO DO!

if the duh? bell is still going off in your brain, reread gunter, jww & jr's comments

the tsb fdrom p ag is very clear on where to use it - hit search