tuning programmable engine management systems

[joeblow]

Having tuned a few of these systems myself I am finding this a very good read! Subscribed...

[pjo046]

Originally Posted by scarceller

UPDATE: I just re-read your prior post. You said you can not live tune the ign values, this is very very bad! You really invested a lot of money in a setup that simply can never be properly tuned. Trying to tune ign by trial and error (change values upload then test) will be very time consuming and most likely will never achieve the best ign setup. I suggest you re-visit your ign setup. Sorry for the bad news.

Hi!
Thank you for the suggestions!

I know it is very unfortunate that the ignition system is like it is. What I can do, is choose "monitor engine functions". Then I get a page which lets me see what the current RPM and advance is. Here I can add or take away several degrees, but they will be added/substracted on the entire map, not just the area I am currently in. However, if I keep a steady RPM and load, I can check the area I am in, and adjust the total timing on the fly to notice any changes. I would then need to write down what works in each area, and later make the changes permanent in the table. So it is very time consuming, but doable.

I was hoping someone had a good base map for the ignition (If someone else here has a single plug 3.0 engine with a CR in my area (8.5:1)).

[scarceller]

Yes that approach should work.

Send me a PM with your email id as I think I may have an ignition map that may be in the ballpark. The 3.2L US cars are single plug and I bet they are not that different than the 3.0L when it comes to ign timing. If you have no ign map to go on you could try the one I suggest.

Originally Posted by pjo046

Hi!
Thank you for the suggestions!

I know it is very unfortunate that the ignition system is like it is. What I can do, is choose "monitor engine functions". Then I get a page which lets me see what the current RPM and advance is. Here I can add or take away several degrees, but they will be added/substracted on the entire map, not just the area I am currently in. However, if I keep a steady RPM and load, I can check the area I am in, and adjust the total timing on the fly to notice any changes. I would then need to write down what works in each area, and later make the changes permanent in the table. So it is very time consuming, but doable.

I was hoping someone had a good base map for the ignition (If someone else here has a single plug 3.0 engine with a CR in my area (8.5:1)).

[scarceller]

Here's my suggested starting values and AFRs for your setup:



These are based off the original distributor timing for WOT (100kpa) ign and my experience in tuning for the lo-load to mid-load section.

These are just suggested starting values and should work well but you really need to dyno tune this table on a load dyno.

Also use the highest octane fuel possible (93 octane) till you verify these values.

You also mentioned you heard pinging at hi-loads at 2500RPMs, the ign you used is to far advanced you had WOT Ign at 1300rpm=22deg and 3000rpm=36deg if you interpolate between these 2 you have something like 2500rpm=32deg at WOT and this in my opinion is to much ignition. My table has 2500rpm=28deg I think the ping will go away with this value and 93 octane fuel.

If you look at my 100kpa ign you'll see it's a bit more conservative than your settings.

Then if you look at my lo-load to part-load ign it's a bit more aggressive than what you have. You said the car seemed to lack responsiveness and my more aggressive ignition values at lighter loads should really help you. For example try taking off in 2nd gear with your setup then do the same with mine, let me know what you find. Also try 2nd gear stop and go traffic you'll be surprised how miss behaved these cars get if ignition is not properly optimized at light loads.

[trond]

Thanks Sal. Will use your ignition map as a starting point in my MegaJolt/EDIS

[scarceller]

trond, keep in mind this setup is a starting point for 8.5:1 compression.

Originally Posted by trond

Thanks Sal. Will use your ignition map as a starting point in my MegaJolt/EDIS

[Trog]

Sal, 48deg at partial load... is that reasonable? What kind of PT advance are you running on your 3.2?

[trond]

My car is a California SC so should have 8.5:1 CR. I will try the ignition map carefully until I get on the rolling road. I run 95 octane btw.

Thanks again

[scarceller]

Trog,

My car is a Euro 3.2L with 10:1 compression and I run as much as 52 deg in the 3500-6800RPM range! I run what the load dyno testing dictates. You'd be surprised how detuned these factory maps are. Then in my hi-compression engine I run 30deg at WOT.

For this 3.0 8.5:1 compression engine the map I provided is very conservative. My bet is on the dyno this engine could easily show 35deg at WOT as optimal. But without dyno testing you have to start conservative.

If you tell me more about your engine setup and share your timing table I can make recommendations if you like.

I have had some dyno time recently on a load dyno near my home and have learned a ton about what these cars really want timing set at.

Originally Posted by Trog

Sal, 48deg at partial load... is that reasonable? What kind of PT advance are you running on your 3.2?

[scarceller]

Trond,

Once you try these PT ignition values let me know. I'll then cover howto find the best no load (Car parked in neutral) ignition. This is the first step to setting up the first few lo-load rows and it's easily done without a dyno. I'll explain how once you have this ignition table loaded and the afr set to 14.2 across the rpm range at no load. Meaning with car in neutral parked simply sweep slowly through the RPMs 1000-5500rpm and dial in the AFR to read about 14.2 in open loop. We do not want the O2 sensor influencing the AFR. But if your system can autotune the AFR while you sweep rpm then by all means use the auto tune feature. But once tuned goto open loop mode and be sure you have achieved 14.2 across the rpm range. Also note what cells you are in during the sweep at no-load. Once you have this done I'll cover howto find optimal ignition for no-load.

Originally Posted by trond

My car is a California SC so should have 8.5:1 CR. I will try the ignition map carefully until I get on the rolling road. I run 95 octane btw.

Thanks again

[911st]

Point of referance.

In Bruce Anderson's book they put 46mm webbers and a full race exhaust on a stock block USA 3.2 and made 265HP at 7000rpm.

My understanding is there dyno (Jerry Woods) reads a little lower than most wheel dynos and more in line with a factory dyno. For example a chip, SSI, & sport muffler went from 213 to 243hp on there motor dyno.

Bassed on SW's info a race exhaust is good for about 10hp over SSI/sport muffler. Then there is the effect of euro pistons and better fuel. SW reports about another 10hp if tuned for race fuel if my memory serves me right.


I wonder if we re-time the stock cams and optimize the intake and exhaust, how far up the rpm range can we get these cams to pull?

Originally Posted by safe

Not sure at the wheels, but 265@6800 at the crank (calculated). Actually it made 270 but I convinced the engine mapper that pulling to 7000 was a bad idea.... Makes good even torque above 300 Nm from 2000-6000 rpm.

So I have a problem, it makes power way to high for my stock internals.

I'm a bit skeptical, I think 265 is slightly high.

There is a club racer here that retimed his cams for more low end and felt it gave him an advantage out of the corners.

Good stuff guys!

[scarceller]

911st,

My setup:
3.2L Euro
Web Cams 20/21
SSIs + M&K 2in2out
Ported, polished and flow benched intake
Running 93 octane

I pull 230hp at the wheels if I set aggressive timing at WOT. This engine easily pulls 260-270HP at the crank.

But I'm not all that interested in max HP at WOT (it's a street car) so I back off on ign at WOT to be safe.

What I really found useful was fine tuning the PT Ignition as it gave me much better snappy throttle response and tons of extra torque (load dyno proven) at lower RPM range. The factory for some reason de-tuned the PT ign at lower RPMs. I'm not sure why they did this but it could simply be they really wanted spongy drive-ability when just driving in the lo-rpm range? Or maybe something emissions related. No matter the load dyno tells the truth and the PT Ignition at lo-loads is far from optimal in the factory setup.

[pjo046]

I am using 98 octane RON (Research octane number, this is how octane is measured at the pump in Europe) on my engine, and that equals 93 octane PON (Pump octane number, this is how octane is measured at the pump in USA and Canada).

Now I am off to try the car with the maps suggested by Sal. :-)

[911st]

Sal,

Big fan of your abilities and achievement here.

My 3.2 even with the best chip I could buy seemed to have poor throttle response, especially with double clutching.

Hope your findings will trickle down some way in the future.

[Sunriseinla]

Sal,

Awesome thread! I also started playing with my 3.2l motronic.

What formula do you use to convert hex to temperature? I use temp(in DegC)=hex2dec*0.75-48DegC.

I have a cold engine accl misfire I'm trying to cure. Started after I installed my cat by-pass. It is fine when the engine is hot, so I don't want to tamper with the standard fuel-maps too much.

Thanks,
Mark

[scarceller]

This formula seems to be the best match, I have tested it against many CHT map scales and matches up nicely.
(0.67 * Byte) - 39 = degrees C.

As for your cold mis-fire there is a table located at 0x1419 (89 chip) or 0x0419 (86-88 chips) this is the "CHT Injection T engine compensation, global" table. This table has CHT in DegC as it's scale and adds fuel if CHTs are cold. You could try adding a bit more fuel for the corresponding CHT that's giving you trouble.

After you installed the by-pass pipe did you reset your base mixture? If not do this first.

Originally Posted by Sunriseinla

Sal,

Awesome thread! I also started playing with my 3.2l motronic.

What formula do you use to convert hex to temperature? I use temp(in DegC)=hex2dec*0.75-48DegC.

I have a cold engine accl misfire I'm trying to cure. Started after I installed my cat by-pass. It is fine when the engine is hot, so I don't want to tamper with the standard fuel-maps too much.

Thanks,
Mark

[Sunriseinla]

Thanks!

I found the 1419 table...just wasn't sure about the temp scale. I have my work cut out for me regarding the base mixture also because of the 10% ethanol out here (there's been talk of increasing it to 15%). Turning the FQS to position 2 or 3 was a quick fix up to now.

[jpnovak]

I didn't realize this thread had been continuing.

Let me just say that the AFR target table that is referenced to me above is for ITBs. The MAP readings will be completely different compared to a common plenum. Where you would see 20-30 kPa with a common plenum on cruise and off throttle I will typically only see 50-60 kPa. This is a function of the ITBs and cam overlap in my particular engine.

Sal had a great suggestion regarding the 14 - 14.2 for the low bins. My high targets allow for fuel cut in the snap off-throttle position (think under heavy braking transition at the track).

This is a great thread and highly informative. Please keep in mind that you should not blindly use numbers from one engine to the next without understanding what those numbers mean. It is easy to damage an engine with wrong AFR targets.

[shahram]

subd

[scarceller]

My fuel has 10% ethanol as well and my car has 10.3:1 Euro comp and runs just fine. All I did is set base mixture slightly rich at 14.2 and I always run open-loop (no O2 connected). I have also learned that Ethanol isn't always bad, for example it actually helps stabilize the air fuel mixture and is less prone to detonate under heat and pressure.

Originally Posted by Sunriseinla

Thanks!

I found the 1419 table...just wasn't sure about the temp scale. I have my work cut out for me regarding the base mixture also because of the 10% ethanol out here (there's been talk of increasing it to 15%). Turning the FQS to position 2 or 3 was a quick fix up to now.