tuning programmable engine management systems

[scarceller]

Erwan,

Is this TPS and MAP setup or TPS only?
Also do you have Intake Air Temp Sensor?

[Tippy]

Some questions:

1. Is that a BMW TPS?
2. I see Motorcraft wires. I assume you are using Ford EDIS?
3. Who made your crank trigger?
4. Are you running Motronic?
5. If you are using Motronic, how did you adapt a TPS? Using a later version or did you buy the aftermarket modified Motronic from the British company (can't think of their name)?

[erwan914]

Originally Posted by scarceller

Erwan,

Is this TPS and MAP setup or TPS only?
Also do you have Intake Air Temp Sensor?

yes sensor air : GM Open Element IAT Sensor


Is this TPS and MAP setup or TPS only? =I do not understand

[Lorenfb]

The 911 3.2 DME ECM is a very simple engine management to understand, troubleshoot,
and diagnose compared to other systems. Yet many attempt to either 'tune' that system
or utilize other engine management systems and lack the simple 3.2 basics!
This is exemplified by the fact that many can't even fix basic 3.2 running problems.
That's why the whole issue of 'performance tuning' is such a joke!

[erwan914]

1: yes TPS BMW

2: edis FORD


4 megasquirt 2 v3

[Tippy]

Ah, sorry about that erwan. Since you were asking "scarceller" questions about igntion, I thought it was Motronic related.

Have you got yours started yet and running? Assuming no. Still trying to figure out why mine does not.

[scarceller]

Loren,

The internals (software) of the motronic is far from simple. I was amazed how much thought was given to the software design, I have fully disassembled the code over the past 4 years. Once I fully understood the code I then re-wrote the appropriate portions to properly handle a MAF conversion. I will say that I'm very glad I took the time to understand the stock program code and stick with the Motronic system.

With this said I now also know howto setup a after market system to follow the design principles I discovered in the Motronic. When I started the journey my goal was to keep the stock DME as I felt it was a great platform that only needed to be understood.

In the end there really is not much a after market ECU can add to these 3.2L engines in term of HP and Torque. What I'm saying is that given the same tune settings of AFR and Ignition the Motronic will perform just as well as any after market system, so long as both have same level of tune.

I have also come to the conclusion that for a street drivable car you can't beat the simplicity of a MAF system it's far better than the AFM in terms of keeping AFRs on target regardless of IATemps or altitude corrections. My converted MAF setup just keeps AFRs constant no matter what happens to IATs or Altitude. Cold start is also much improved.

Originally Posted by Lorenfb

The 911 3.2 DME ECM is a very simple engine management to understand, troubleshoot,
and diagnose compared to other systems. Yet many attempt to either 'tune' that system
or utilize other engine management systems and lack the simple 3.2 basics!

[scarceller]

In the picture I can see the TPS sensor but are you also using a Manifold Pressure Sensor? Is this speed density system, alpha-N, or a blend of the 2 systems?

Looks like it may just be a TPS AlphaN system where load is directly related to Throttle Position? AlphaN is usually only used in track cars and is very basic setup.

Originally Posted by erwan914

Is this TPS and MAP setup or TPS only? =I do not understand

[erwan914]

Originally Posted by Tippy

Ah, sorry about that erwan. Since you were asking "scarceller" questions about igntion, I thought it was Motronic related.

Have you got yours started yet and running? Assuming no. Still trying to figure out why mine does not.

I never equiped the montronic. I buy the engine 3.2 and I have immediately equiped the Megasquirt

[Tippy]

Sal, will you develop a Motronic platform that is speed density? MAF's are not good for boosted applications as I am sure you are aware due to the trickery. If you adapted a MAP sensor, guys could start boosting their 3.2's the right way without trickery.

I would have kept the Motronic but, I didn't like to run 110 PSI of fuel pressure and the AFM being maxxed out long before the engine had reached full hp, etc. I had to go to MegaSquirt to do it the right way.......plus I couldn't figure out what was going wrong with my Motronic period.

[Tippy]

Originally Posted by erwan914

I never equiped the montronic. I buy the engine 3.2 and I have immediately equiped the Megasquirt

You are running naturally aspirated or boost? If naturally aspirated, I would just use the Motronic for it's simplicity and reliability.

[erwan914]

Originally Posted by scarceller

In the picture I can see the TPS sensor but are you also using a Manifold Pressure Sensor? Is this speed density system, alpha-N, or a blend of the 2 systems?

Looks like it may just be a TPS AlphaN system where load is directly related to Throttle Position? AlphaN is usually only used in track cars and is very basic setup.

In the picture I can see the TPS sensor but are you also using a Manifold Pressure Sensor? MPX4250 2.5 Bar MAP Sensor in the megasquirt





megasquit with the blue pipe where the sensor is connected

[Lorenfb]

"I have also come to the conclusion that for a street drivable car you can't beat the simplicity of a MAF system it's far better than the AFM in terms of keeping AFRs on target regardless of IATemps or altitude corrections. My converted MAF setup just keeps AFRs constant no matter what happens to IATs or Altitude. Cold start is also much improved."

Anyone that's properly evaluated dyno runs understands the AFRs have little effect
on torque over the range of 11 to 14. That's the big scam in 'performance tuning'.
It's all about just 'pushing' the timing! Hardly takes any real expertise, i.e. just
a PC, a simple app, and an EPROM programmer.

[scarceller]

I could do TPS / MAP but I don't see the point. Why do you say MAF is not good for boosted applications? The Maf I'm using has tons of headroom, the 3.2L only pulls about 14,000g/min of air and my MAF can accurately measure 22,000g/min which is tons of head room for boost. The MAF could go on either side of the turbo (suction or pressure side) Placing it on pressure side between the turbo and TB makes most sense since it will correctly compensate for air temp.

What have you heard about MAF not being good for turbo? Plenty of stock OEM turbo systems use MAF.

Originally Posted by Tippy

Sal, will you develop a Motronic platform that is speed density? MAF's are not good for boosted applications as I am sure you are aware. If you adapted a MAP sensor, guys could start boosting their 3.2's the right way without trickery.

[Tippy]

All the boosted cars I've been around, you had to trick the MAF once boosted in one form or the other.

I can see if you have a MAF large enough that can measure the airflow, you are fine. But, don't you still need the MAP so the engine knows it is under boost?

[scarceller]

Loren,

You make it sound so simple, but you really need expertise to know howto properly use a dyno to tune. Also I don't even use a EPROM programer, you MUST have a full blown real-time emulator that let's you change chip parameters on the fly live while on the dyno. It's not as simple as you say. Please recognize the experts and the abilities they have.

Have you ever live tuned on a load dyno? Have you ever seen it done? Do you know the detailed procedures we follow? Also this is exactly how the OEM tuners do it also. I suggest you buy a few books, start with the books written by Greg Banish. After you read these and educate yourself then feel free to chat with me. Learn a little about Greg's background then judge us.

Originally Posted by Lorenfb

Anyone that's properly evaluated dyno runs understands the AFRs have little effect
on torque over the range of 11 to 14. That's the big scam in 'performance tuning'.
It's all about just 'pushing' the timing! Hardly takes any real expertise, i.e. just
a PC, a simple app, and an EPROM programmer.

[scarceller]

No, why should we care if under boost or not? The math for fuel calculations simply looks at intake airflow and then calculates amount of fuel for the given airflow. It does not care if the flow was accomplished by forced induction. Of course you modify the adders for fuel to richen up after VE=1 and also pull timing out but this has nothing to do with initial fuel calcs. I could be wrong here, but I think MAF should work just fine with Boost.

Originally Posted by Tippy

I can see if you have a MAF large enough that can measure the airflow, you are fine. But, don't you still need the MAP so the engine knows it is under boost?

[Lorenfb]

"You make it sound so simple, but you really need expertise to know howto properly use a dyno to tune. Also I don't even use a EPROM programer, you MUST have a full blown real-time emulator that let's you change chip parameters on the fly live while on the dyno. It's not as simple as you say. Please recognize the experts and the abilities they have."

You have no idea what I've done with Porsche/BMW/Mercedes engine management
systems in the last 20+ years. It appears the you have been reading too many posts
here on Pelican about 'tuning' and sucked-up the snake oil! Your statements about
MAF and effects on performance confirms the irrelevance of AFR 'tuning' (tweaking)
when within the range of 11 to 14. Yes using my emulator does simplify the process
but doesn't determine the final results. What has more effect on torque, a one degree
in timing or a one point change in AFR? You and others obviously don't understand
this or like to scam others into believing that 'tuning' is more than just 'pushing' timing.

[Tippy]

My thinking has always been this:

If a naturally aspirated engine flowed, let's say 1000 CFM of airflow, that engine required a given amount of fuel.

Now, if a boosted engine flowed the same exact 1000 CFM of airflow, it would require more fuel due to the higher cylinder pressure to minimize detonation.

So, that theory goes back to a MAF system still needing a MAP to my thinking.

I could be wrong and please someone correct me if so. This might be an old school way of thinking from roots blowers with no intercooler vs todays more efficient intercooled turbos.

[scarceller]

Loren,

Where did I say that MAF results in performance? You simply don't read very well, I stated that it helps drivability and overall AFR targets!

I know very well that ignition tuning and not just AFR effects torque, I also know exactly howto find Best Torque for a given condition on a engine. That's all we tuners really do, is validate or correct stock ignition on the dyno. It's not snake oil, it's a science that's used by OEM tuners.

I'm done here, please respect that others do not agree with you and are very interested in keeping this thread on topic which by the way is 'tuning programmable engine management systems'. If you don't like the topic simply don't read it!

Thanks for your time.

Originally Posted by Lorenfb

"You make it sound so simple, but you really need expertise to know howto properly use a dyno to tune. Also I don't even use a EPROM programer, you MUST have a full blown real-time emulator that let's you change chip parameters on the fly live while on the dyno. It's not as simple as you say. Please recognize the experts and the abilities they have."

You have no idea what I've done with Porsche/BMW/Mercedes engine management
systems in the last 20+ years. It appears the you have been reading too many posts
here on Pelican about 'tuning' and sucked-up the snake oil! Your statements about
MAF and effects on performance confirms the irrelevance of AFR 'tuning' (tweaking)
when within the range of 11 to 14. Yes using my emulator does simplify the process
but doesn't determine the final results. What has more effect on torque, a one degree
in timing or a one point change in AFR? You and others obviously don't understand
this or like to scam others into believing that 'tuning' is more than just 'pushing' timing.