Why not put out a call for an English manual in a new thread? If there is an English version, someone here's bound to know where to 'borrow' one.
Good technical translations are often quite difficult - and as with anything else, you get what you pay for.
I'd hate for you to have to charge more because the translation was so expensive ;)
How many pages total?

I've been hunting for these manuals in English for years! I've posted here and on Rennlist, searched eBay and other auction sites, contacted purveyers of automobile literature and online booksellers and even trolled swap meets. No luck! Here is one thread where I asked but only got information about a German language version from 1963 and a link to the Bosch store on German language eBay. Here is another with no responses at all!

If anyone has these they aren't sharing. :confused:

What do you guys want EXACTLY? I will call my contact at Bosch who was the one who originally got us the manuals on Ebay. If there's an english version in the archives they can get it and scan it and put it up for sale.

John, I got my copy " Bosch PED 6 KL.." manual off the Bosch German site last year for $27.00 plus shipping. Problem is they only offer the manual in German. If you could have them post one in English that would be great. The only thing I have in English is the 2.4 supplement "VDT-WJP 711/1B. This covers the new space cam and "c" measurement and also the flow test sheets for the 2.4 pumps.

I would love to find - and would pay for - a clean original English language copy of:

1) BOSCH "Repair Instructions for Gasoline injection pump with mechanical governor" VDT-WJP 711/1 and/or 1B (latest edition);

2) VDT-WJP 711/1 and/or 1B (supplements 1 and 2). I think this is two (maybe three) different documents; and

3) PED 6 KL & PED 6 KL 60/120 R 3 (mechanical fuel injection pump with regulator test instructions and supplement). I think this is two different documents and that the supplement may be the same document as VDT-WJP 711/1 above.

Thanks in advance for any help you can provide.

Hey guys,
OK, I just got off the phone w/Bosch Auto Tradition (I was curious - a quick google and 2 calls. Less than 10 mins.). Had a real pleasant chat and was told that the problem is, that Bosch does not have these documents (PED 6KL.. & all supplements) in their archive. They have bits and pieces - some scanned and sent to them by private parties - but nothing complete. If they did, the procedure would be exactly as John stated; they'd print up a copy, spiral bind it, and put it on ebay. The gentleman I spoke to even mentioned that they were aware that there were inquiries in the Pelican forum before I even dropped the Pelican name.

So David seems to be right - and if anyone has these manuals in English, Bosch is interested in a copy. Strange world.

Ohh, and I forgot to mention: while doing the quick google above, I stumbled over Koller&Schwemmer's pricelist - €2359.- + tax for a rebuilt pump providing you have a rebuildable core. They will also change the space cam and modify the pump for motors of up to 3.6l for an additional €1500.

I suppose that's a real bargain when you consider the below, but I still have trouble understanding where all the money goes.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2.../3orspumpe.jpg

So if we get the PED 6 KL... translated to English here in the US can we then sell it without any legal issues?

What was I thinking......I mean the sale price would just cover the printing costs, not for sale as in a publication type deal.

Steve,
Did you speak to Herr Sattleberger at K&S Bosch of Nurenburg?
Vr
Bavaria911

Those 3.0RS MFI pumps and test specs.... they're a dime a dozen ;)

No, I spoke to a gentleman (who's name I've already forgotten- CRS) directly at Bosch Automotive Tradition in Karlsruhe.
The K&S stuff (prices) is just off the website.

I think you will find K&S very protective of their business position - they were appointed (or acquired?) Bosch's MFI and Kugelfischer interests. I really can't believe that Bosch were subsequently able to sell their IP in the test docs seperatey....perhaps it all just fell through the cracks.
John

You won't have any information from K. und S. IMO... that's their knowledge, and you should translate what's written on each Bosch document ....
A friend of mine has an (old) uncle who works for Bosch in germany especially on MFI pumps .. he couldn't tell me anything on the subject because of moral and legal issues ...
Philippe

Mmmm, this discussion is going way off track but there are no big secrets around this 40 year old technology. If K&S is somewhat protective of their position (I have not spoken directly to them and can neither confirm nor contradict this) then that's understandable as they prob made a somewhat significant investment in their equipment. Bosch would like to help everyone make their systems work. All documents are available - just not in English. No hocus-pocus-voodoo info.

Mark,
I thought I had replied to your post about the copyright - don't know what happened there. The short answer would be no. While you might be able to make a case that you retain the rights to your translation of 40 year old docs that Bosch is uninterested in doing anything with, you certainly would not have the rights to any diagrams, pics, etc from the original docs. And if Bosch decided to challenge your copyright claim....

Steve

Well, tell us, if there is no big secret, how to set to 3.0RS specs ...
what cam, flow charts .... and why professionnals don't illustrate the topic ...
and finally, where to get the pumping assembly ... you may tell me in french in a pm ...:)
( i know what i'm talking about ...;) )
Philippe

Now Where Were We? MFI Dyno fun, that's were. I upgraded the 1/3 HP motor that was running the MFI pumps with a 1 HP motor. Now there is no problem with WOT at 3500 RPM. Made up all the tools I need to set up the pumps. Setting the "c" measurement is now a piece of cake. Most of that problem was trying to understand how the Germans write out there instructions. Anyway, I just finished a complete recalibration on one of the first 2.0 S pumps from the early 69 S engines. The pump tag numbers are: PED 6 KL 60/120 R 1 and the regulator numbers: EP/RLA 1/20 R. The ID number is: 0408 126 001. Also this pump has a serial number. Never saw this before. The S/N is: 80736576.
The clean up and installing parts needed took most of a day. The flow tests took a good half day. Only big problem was #6 & #4 were running about 2.5mL more than the rest. Adjusting the piston delivery is very time consuming because the slightest movement of the piston boss after the clamp is loosened makes a big change in the delivery amount. A great learning experience working with these pumps. Some pictures of the 2.0 S pump below.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1241138632.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1241138658.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1241138678.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1241138696.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1241138709.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1241138721.jpg

Mark that's awesome... congratulations on the great progress. I have a few pumps lined up ready to send over ;)

Most superb! What is the AC Tech unit?

Well done Mark - I know you've been spending a bit time on this - glad to see you persevered and got a good result

What was the outcome of the cylinder with no output?

John

The level of technical proficiency of some people on this board is simply amazing! My hat's off to you Mark! Keep up the great work and please keep us up to date.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1241176556.jpg

Thanks to all of you. Scott; The AC Tech unit is the motor control system. The control unit is programmable. I have set the min. RPM for 400 and the max. RPM at 4000 controlled by a potentiometer, set the ramp-up speed to max and the ramp-down to max. the ramp-up is very important because at tests at 2000 RPM and up I need the motor to get there from a dead stop to (example 3000 RPM) in less that 1 sec. At 4000 RPM it takes about 1 sec. At these high RPMs I have to do a little loss calculations at the start-ups.
John; I will post some pictures of the pump that had the intermittent stuck piston.
John Bell; Let me know what you need. I'll be glad to help.
Next Pump will be a RS space cam installation in a 015. I will first flow test the stock 015 and document the flows, then R & R the space cam and recalibrate for RS specs.

I finally got around to taking apart the MFI pump that had an intermittent sticking piston during one of the first pump Dyno Tests. I found corrosion on some of the piston pressure valves. Posting pictures of disassembly so far today.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1241386001.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1241386033.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1241386060.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1241386096.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1241386135.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1241386155.jpg

Well, I found the reason why the piston was sticking all right! I'm surprised they were working at all. The pump head area were the fuel enters and exits is full of corrosion. Some kind of white powder crystal stuff. Photos below show the problem.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1241394936.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1241395006.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1241395044.jpg

What kind of solvent can I use to clean out the pump head fuel area? Look at these photos.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1241395166.jpghttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1241395196.jpghttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1241395244.jpghttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1241395265.jpg

That's an all full lot of buildup in the head.

Thanks for posting all of your findings Mark.

White powder looks like corrosion of the alloy body- a couple of options....modest to extreme
If it is corrosion, the solvent wont help directly, but it will dissolve any other gum/fuel based deposits in the fuel manifold.

1) solvent (eg Shellite, Stoddard, Kerosene etc)
2) solvent in ultrasonic cleaner (mind the fire hazrad..)
3) take it to a local electroplating works - they may be able to strip and passivate/chromate the surface (mind the epoxied in fittings)
4) soda blasting
..
..
99) mask machined surfaces with hot wax then alkali dip - eg NaOH
100) mask machined surfaces with hot wax then acid dip - eg phoshoric, (please don't try HF - very nasty stuff)

The ultrasonic will "chip away" at the corrosion in all of the areas you can't reach

Regards
John

Thanks John. I'll see what's available here in the NW and let you know how it plays out.
It looks like the pistons and related parts can be cleaned up. The rest of the pump and governor are in good shape so I hope I can save the fuel head portion.

That looks nasty inside... it's deceiving because the outside of the pump looks nice. Hope it cleans up so you can save the pump.

Is that the space cam, or some type of drive shaft?

It's not the "space cam". It is the camshaft that lies on the bottom of the main pump assembly. It operates the pistons in the pump assembly and also extends into the governor portion of the MFI pump and there the "space cam" and flyweights are attached. I will post some photos of all the parts attached to the camshaft.

I find the whole MFI system fascinating - and a little bit scary.

All I know about them is what I've read on Pelican. I drive an MFI car several times a week, and although the engine was rebuilt, the MFI has never been touched.

I am amazed at how well the engine runs, how smooth it is. I am intimidated by having to repair it some day, but until then, I'll just try and learn as much as I can and enjoy driving it!

It is so interesting what mechanical engineers were able to do without computers and integrated circuits. By being smart enough to know the givens, they were able to design a variable system that was both complex and reliable.

Keep driving her David and enjoy. Below is just some of the basic parts. The space cam is the first part to the right of the camshaft, in between the flyweights and camshaft. It has a black zip tie around it.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1241454547.jpg

That is magnesium corrosion-- be VERY careful with any acids around it or the thing will literally melt away in your hands. I would blast it with glass beads, make sure you tape over the data plates. Then treat the mag with a browning coating like the one Henkel makes. Or there's a poly-fiber product that's not that expensive.

That's a nice test rig, Mark! Let me know if you're interested in automating your test and measurement processes or collecting data; it could help improve your accuracy and repeatability quite a bit. I used to work in precision mechanical and electronic calibration and then moved into writing control software and measurement applications. I've built a lot of home-brew test gear like this and would be happy to help, if possible. I'm not too far up the road from you.

/Jon

Thank you John and John. I will be very careful on how I proceed.

Jon, Funny you should mention that. I have been searching for a "High Pressure, Low Flow Meter" to record the flow in-line before each injector. This would save lots of time during the flow recording process. Timing and reading then dumping the test flows is very time consuming. If I had a digital flow meter calibrated in mL/min and way to record the space cam plots, rpm and throttle degree, that would be fantastic. I have been looking at flow sensors, and so far non of them seem to be able to support the pressures of 250 to 300 psi and read a very low flow rate.

That's exactly what I (used to) do - test automation. I've worked with micro-flow meters quite a bit, and I'm sure we can find some suitable units. PM me with your email if you want to discuss the gory details without clogging up your thread here.

Also, I don't have any experience with the space cam but, if I understand the theory properly, I have an idea for a simple and very accurate mapping device, without requiring an aerospace-grade laboratory and lasers. Not that there is anything wrong with lasers - they can be fun :cool: - I just can't afford that kind of equipment.

/Jon

Wow...awesome effort. It makes me wish I still had MFI on my car....sorta!

(Quick side comment: I got my 911E in 93 or so, and in the late 90s I needed an new engine. Time and money were tight. I ended up upgrading to a 2.7 with Solex cams and SSIs and Webers. Which have been replaced with PMOs.

I did that because, 10 years ago, we just didn't have a community that has such intimate knowledge of the MFI system. At the time, the "gurus" were few, far between and rather pricey. What a difference a few years and the magic of the internet has made.Marvelously ironic that such "modern" technology such as instant data sharing would revive the nearly lost art of Mechanical Fuel Injection tuning.)

Touche' all!

This is great stuff. Very nice Mark. Looking forward to hearing about the cleaning method used. :cool:

Well my cleaning method was picks, sharpened narrow head screw drivers, a 12mm drill bit (down through the center bore), wheel cylinder hones, more sharp metal picks, round wire brushes on a drill motor, small round wire brushes on a drummel tool, and 4 hours of elbow grease. I think it's now ready for the "Henkel Magnesium Treatment Kit" I ordered today and will be here by Friday. I think it looks very good inside now. I can't seem to get any more flakes out. Flushed and flushed with solvent then air gun dry. Also used the wire brushes to clean the outer surface of the pump head. I got a little carried away on that.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1241485368.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1241485408.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1241485438.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1241485465.jpg

This is after I spent 4 hours on it:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1241485485.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1241485537.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1241485988.jpghttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1241486024.jpg

I know were a little off track on the original thread of "MFI Pump Dyno build" but this all comes together after I reassemble the magnesium corroded pump and recalibrate it. Now remember this pump is totality out of calibration now. Just getting it back together will be a miracle, and the flow test results should be entertaining. You gotta love it.