Posted twice.

Hello Mark
Are you sure you will be able to set to Rs specs with a 015 regulator ? ;)
Your pumping pistons don't look good, on that pic ... ? what are you feeling when moving them ?

Philippe, The photo of the pistons with corrosion on them in post #104 are from a 2.2E pump Im working on. After I finish this 2.2E pump I will be starting on a different pump project, installing an RS space cam in a 015 pump. I have the 2.7S or RS flow test paper and I see no reason why I can't recalibrate it to the RS specs. But I could be wrong. This is the whole idea of having the MFI Pump Dyno. Philippe, You have lots of experience with the MFI pump and I thank you for all the information you contribute.

On top of everything else, this guy's a great photographer???

Is this for freakin'g real?

Amazing stuff - keep it up!

Mark,

On the off chance that you haven't seen these yet, here and here are two sites with pictures of the equipment at Pacific Fuel Injection. Enjoy!

David

David, Yes I have and thank you. I used the test tube rack that Guss has for my set up. Notice the wine glass style funnel on top so you can view the injectors if necessary. My dream would be to have the computer based flow test and data. Next year maybe?

Hey, Mark - just wondering if my emails got through. Once we locate some suitable meters, I could have the software done in a couple of weeks or less. I'm currently 'in-between jobs' so this would be a good time for me if you're still interested.

/Jon

Yes very interested. I'll e-mail you the specs. today.

Anyone care to speculate on the number of MFI systems produced by Porsche?

On another note, did they ever MFI a 4 cylinder - 356? 4 Cam? 912? 914?

Nope.

That said, it is possible, given that MFI was available in Alfa and BMW 4 cylinders. Alfa used Spica and BMW used Kugelfischer (and possily Bosch). I think MB only used MFI on 6 cylinder and up cars.

I know you spent a lot of time and elbow grease cleaning the unit; I have picked up a couple of Ultrasonic units off evil bay cheap, which would help reduce your labor on future units.

I found these pictures in an old repair book. It's interesting to see how close Mark has come to the factory setup - or maybe that's Mark in the pictures. ;)

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© Harold T. Glenn, Glen's Diesel and Gasoline Fuel-Injection Manual, pages 6-7 (1973). Posted here for educational purposes only.

Great pictures David, Thanks. Amazing how the Germans used a monster lathe and converted it for MFI pump testing. Or did Bosch actually build that specifically for the MFI pumps? Must have 20 hp. How could they tell if the MFI pump camshaft all of a sudden seized up the bearings? That big motor would just grind it all up before you could pull the plug. 72 pump that guys working on. Looks like they run the pump without the side cover on the regulator?

Thanks for the kind words Mark ...
But i'm not really experienced comparing to some of us on this board ...
Yes i've done a lot of pump calibrating with success on stock engines ...
The new way i try from some monthes is non factory engine tuning ... I ve understood that the springs are not all the same on MFi units, that's why it's not often easy ... i've one pump at home that has self made centrifugal weights, and that i set to "RSR" flows ... we'll see what happen ... I think you won't have to consider electronic or so data collecting ... the way you measure is pretty accurate and you'll see you will be able to repeat the process with reliability. By the way, the guy that will throw the pump on the engine will have to do fine tuning (often). I believe here 's the hard job ...
I will soon try to do a 3.2LMFI engine and tell you about !... for what i see the guy for that job Here is Henry Schmidt !;)

you can operate without the side covers of the pumping elements too !

That Bosch must make pretty good stuff
 

From our late model tractor:

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The similarities are many!

What is REALLY interesting about the modern Bosch stuff is that they have electronic diesel control. If you read the Bosch Automotive Handbook (I have the 7th edition) they say that there is a no-contact sensor for the rack position and that is coupled with a servo that moves the rack, so you have feedback. Those elements are contained in an end housing that looks like it replaces the mechanical and centrifugal governor of the pump.

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It makes sense, the only part that controls the fuel is the rack. The rack is moved by the governor. If you went to direct control of the rack . . .

By the way there is an awful lot of information about the very similar diesel pumps out there. . . here is one example . . . http://www.competitiondiesel.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14085

Very interesting John. Do you have one I can play with?

Mark, it's hard for me to keep anything interesting around without taking it apart and rendering it useless. (Animate objects excepted)

That said, Bosch innovated EDC (electronic diesel control) in the early 1980s, so there are probably tens of thousands of the pumps around. It's funny, our gasoline pumps are a very small branch on the huge tree of Bosch diesel stuff. MFI development for diesels continued LONG after the advent of CIS so there is interesting stuff out there.

I received the Magnesium Treatment Kit today. I had the MFI pump body cleaned and ready for the treatment procedure. Last week I spent several hours cleaning all the corrosion out of the fuel head area. So today I completed the magnesium treatment and also added a black dye process at the end. Pictures below:

Bench set up for the dipping and rinsing process:

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Black Dye dip had to at 140 degrees:
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First dip was the Magnesium Corrosion Treatment dip:
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Then the Black Dye Dip:

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Then the water rinsing and air blow dry and this is what it looks like:

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Before Treatment last week it looked like this:

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Now this is what the finished product looks like:

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Mark, great! I have an important question. What did the finish look like before the black dye? A yellowish "chem film" appearance? Did you take any photos of the process at that step? This relates to the finish on my carb manifolds.

This stuff is soooo friggin' cool. It also makes me really upset that the PO replaced the original 2.4 MFI motor with a 3.0 CIS. Well, maybe not entirely, I could really enjoy a 3.0 MFI :D Keep up the great work!

John, I was too worried about the timing of all the dipping process's so I did not get any pictures during the Mag treatment dip. But, Yes the color was a yellowish to light yellow/gray chem film look. I actually liked the color after that dip but had the black dye all warmed up to 140 degrees and ready, so I dip it in for the black color. I was a little lean on the black dye mix so the color, as you can see, is a very light coat of black. I know what to do next time for a darker color. The photo's don't show the inside of the pump head very well and that area turned out great. Very clean and smooth inside the whole fuel head. Next step: Put it all back together and calibrate.

Mark - Pump looks great - looks like you've retained (recreated ?) that lovely black factory finish!!

Do I understand that you ran the pump through the alodine and dye treatment with the rack bush and fuel in/out threaded bushings (epoxied) in situ ? They don't appear to have take on any colour, or other ill effects, or were they cleaned post treatment?

I took a look at the Henkel site and MSDS - carefully does it with the Cr6 !!!

Well done, and thanks again for posting the gritty details.

John

John, I called Henkel and told them about the steel parts that I couldn't remove from the Mag assembly, and they said it shouldn't be a problem. And it wasn't, and turned out great. Cleaning up all the piston assemblies now and waiting for the pump to govern housing gasket to arrive from Gus. Hope to start putting it back together this week.

Some pictures of the MFI pump pistons and cylinders after cleaning the corrosion from them. Notice the "number" on the pistons. The pistons on this 2.2E pump are numbered "1/403 004" for number 4-5-6, and "1/303 030" for numbers 1-2-3. The cylinders are numbered "02" for 1-2-3 and "90" for 4-5-6.

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Piston & cylinder Markings
 

Mark - the numbers on your pistons and cylinders are abbreviations

For 2.0 and 2.2L
1 418 303 030
1 418 403 004

and for 2.4L+ expect
1 418 303 033
1 418 403 005

l'd expect additional markings for tolerance groups to aid match sorting and assembly at the factory for the extremenly fine clearances required of this assembly.

It is refered to in the repair instructions (P19, to the right of figure 47) as
VDT-WJP 011/3B - I don't have a copy of the doc.

Thanks John. So maybe the numbers "90" & "02" on the cylinders could be the tolerance group markings? I will check through my manuals tomorrow.

Missing documents have been the story of our lives in unraveling MFI mysteries. :mad: Thanks to John and Mark, the answers are getting less elusive. :D

A fairly bad copy of the "repair instructions" John refers to can be found here. If anyone has any of the the missing documents or manuals, or better copies of the one's we already have, (posted here) please send me a PM and I'll make sure we get it posted to help us all. Thanks again for this great thread Mark.

David, I was lucky to have a good copy of the Repair Instructios EP VDT-WJP 711/1B.
Reading pages 15 thru 22 last night so I can get the plungers/pistons and realted parts back in place. This will be fun. I will measure the plunger OD and document it because I remember John or Philippe had information on larger OD assemblies for some of the racing pumps.

Plunger diameters
 

Mark

The pump plunger diameters are easily identified by the pump part number nomenclature

Pump Nomenclature

PED6KL & PES6KL applications

PES8KL applications

The normally aspirated Porsches (inc RSR, 906 to 917) used PED6KL or PES6KL with 6mm (except for the 901/21 used in type907 which was 7mm). Turbos (eg 917, 935) may have used 7mm (I don't have any pump reference numbers...yet)
7mm was commonly used in PES6KL pumps for NA Mercedes. The AM and MB V8's used a 7.5mm assembly.

"Studly" is the only descriptor for this effort.

Thanks John, I measured mine this morning anyway and of course got 6mm OD on the plunger/pistons. Great information on the documents you posted. I'm printing those right now and I'm sure David is too.
Quite the challenge assembling the main rack and plungers; clamps; cylinders; etc. I was hoping to get all 6 in this evening, no way. Lots of measurements have to be checked and adjusted in this procedure. Great leaning experience.

Another reference
 

Mark - a reference as to the markings on the pistons/cylinders - this one from EP EVP 711/1 Service Parts/Fuel Injection Pumps

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1242253246.jpg

Regards
John

It's amazing how important the OD of the plunger rollers are for the right height of the plunger. 15 different size's from 14.4mm to 16.08mm.

Increments of 0.12mm to achieve lash at TDC (OT) of 0.5mm to 0.6mm

Last Friday I finally finished the reassembly of the 2.2E pump that was corroded. Installing the plungers was a challenge for the first three but finely figured out the correct assembly procedure and the rest were easy. The manual does not really help that much, especially on the orientation of the plungers base that fits into the cam roller. And also the fine wound spring that connects the base to the plunger. For a moment I thought that I should wind it up one full turn? Well I found one real good reason for that so I installed them in a neutral position. Photos of the process as of Friday. Finished the rest this weekend and will start calibration. More to follow..

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Mark, I was corresponding with Bosch today, they are searching the archives for the english-language repair manuals.

I hope they find some John. That would be great news.

Große Nachrichten!

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