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Lots of adjusting to do on this pump. The first run was just a flush into a 250ml graduated plastic cylinder. I wanted to do this before I installed all the lines to the injectors. The first run was all over the place as you can see by the photos. This will take some time adjusting.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1242680882.jpg First test run: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1242680900.jpg Second test run: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1242680914.jpg A lot of adjusting!! |
Plunger installation
Quote:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1242689057.jpg (C) Robert Bosch GmbH 4.63 A rough translation (anyone with better German is welcome to chime in here !!) "After pre-setting of the elements (edit:clearance at TDC =OT) (by possible exchange of the cam followers) the piston foot spring becomes strained by rotating the Roller shaft around 360° in the clockwise direction with EFEP 458." Note this refers to the single in line pump arrangement - all elements rotated in the same direction. Tool references: EFEP 458 = tappet clamp for preloading the plunger base spring EFEP 457 = spring seat gripper for fitting pump plungers with plunger base spring and spring seat EFEP 76 = plunger gripper for fitting pump plungers without plunger base spring and spring seat (for checking free movement of plunger) Now, for the Porsche double in line PED..KL.. pumps - the following is taken from the repair instruction VDT-WJP 711/1B Ed.2 Sup 9.67 http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1242689037.jpg (C) Robert Bosch GmbH 9.67 Leads me to believe that the rotation is implied by required final orientation of the plunger markings "always visible on the outside of the pump". Further - I think these springs provide restoring force to the rack - forcing it to the stop position. So it's important to get them all forcing the rack in the same direction - closed....wouldn't be a great outcome to have the pump at WOT fuel delivery as the default position. Hope this helps, and happy to stand corrected. Regards John |
Great information John. My plungers are installed correct, with the 3 digit number to the outside. As far as the 360 degree twist of the "piston foot spring", I preloaded 4-5-6 with the twist, but left 1-2-3 with no preload twist. I wanted to see if I could see a difference. The preload seems to be a good idea, but I can't find any information on that procedure for the PED series pumps, only for the PES series as you pointed out. I took some photo's of the flow data sheets I made for the first flow runs on this 2.2 E corroded pump. Photo's below. Hope it makes scene.
Section B is the first series of tests that I'm doing. This is the Bosch test sheet: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1242694000.jpg Red circles show the target flow and the lowest flow. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1242694024.jpg After that adjustment was successful, now I have two high flow ones to deal with. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1242694042.jpg A photo of the test sheet I made up. T1 thru T4 are the average flow totals. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1242694055.jpg |
Mark
Makes perfect sense - minimise variance within the group and within the range. Your careful and methodical approach is not lost on those of us following this thread. Looks like you're well on the way to getting this done - bravo !! John |
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I wonder if Mr. Pfister is following this thread.
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Hello Mark
you're a bit further than me !:D here's a 2.4E waiting for dyno test ... http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1242760882.jpg |
Well organized Philippe. Can you post a picture of your MFI dyno system?
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Having problems adjusting the #6 plunger to maintain a consistent flow at low RPM's to high RPM's. Readings at zero throttle @ 400 rpm would only get 7 to 8 ml for #6 and the rest would be at 13-14ml. So I adjusted #6 a few times only to get it up to 8.5ml. Then at a flow test with max throttle @ 2000 rpm numbers 1 - 5 are between 43 - 44.5ml and # 6 is at 52ml. When I adjust # 6 back down for the 2000rpm test then at a zero throttle @ 400rpm its at 5ml and the rest are at 13-14ml.
Recheck the TDC plunger heights and all 6 are in between 0.5 & 0.6mm. So I remembered the problem with all the corrosion on the #5 & 6 plungers and cylinders. I had a difficult time cleaning #6 piston top area. Wire brushed it to death but still would not slide into the cylinder good. Seemed to bind up halfway in. So I used some very fine grit, 2000 emery paper to clean it up. I spent about 30min cleaning, or should I say sanding that plunger before it would finally slid through free. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1242941384.jpg Well the problem is that I over did it. I most likely took off all the sharp edges at the top of the plunger and also increased the clearance between the plunger and cylinder. I also cleaned out the cylinder bore. What was I thinking? http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1242941651.jpg Lesson learned. I have another pump that's missing front & side covers so I will dissemble it and get a plunger & cylinder out. I'll start testing again by tomorrow I hope. |
Thanks Mark...perfect
I was thinking of something like this - might need some tweeking on some dimensions http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1242959761.jpg John |
Quote:
but it's really an "old school" unit, compared to your professional top looking system ... I used sometimes, the paste for "breaking in" (not sure for the words ?) valves to remove rust ;) |
Looks great John. That's a lot of work on a tool just for installing the plunger and giving the piston foot spring a 360 turn, but I'm sure it will save lots of time. Let me know if you need any other measurements. I have done the plunger instalation two different ways. After installing the plunger I turn the cam follower 360, or after plunger installation I turn the plunger guide 360 then tighten clamp.
Philippe, When I first started the idea of a test stand that's what I was going to use it for, just breaking in the pump and looking for injector performance. But soon I figured it wouldn't much more work to build a complete dyno. Glad I did. |
Overkill? probably, but I have small lathe and the time to do it (and I like gadgetry)
Good luck with reassembly and test with the new cylinder & plunger |
Thought I would post some pictures of the difference between the early 2.0 - 2.2 plunger and the 2.4 plunger.
The first one is the 2.4 plunger. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1243373460.jpg This is the 2.0 - 2.2 plunger. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1243373536.jpg Closeup of the plunger assembly. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1243373604.jpg And a close up of the spring. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1243373665.jpg |
While waiting on the replacement plunger for the 2.2E pump I started on the next pump. This is a 2.4T pump that will be getting a 2.4S Euro space cam installed. As you can see below this pump is very dirty inside.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1243376354.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1243376369.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1243376381.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1243376397.jpg |
I was interested in the weights of the flyweights, so after cleaning them up I weighed them. 218.7 grams on one and 220.1 on the other. I marked them so they will get installed back in the same location.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1243376705.jpg Maybe this might be a good time to remove a few grams so to extend the max RPM / fuel delivery of the pump? http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1243376885.jpg |
Reminder - 5 screws, 4 washers
Just a reminder about the intentionally missing washer on reassembly.
From VDT-WJP 711/1B Ed2 Repair Instructions: "Caution: contrary to the information appearing in the service parts list, no spring washer must be used under the upper fixing screw of the governor housing" http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1243575385.jpg |
Lightened flyweights
Quote:
Holding the flyweights for machining would be an interesting exercise in itself. You'd also be in custom space cam (and spring/setting) territory, given the change in fore/aft movement of the cam with speed. Certainly an entertaining thought !!! :) |
Thanks John. While I was removing the governor body from the pump I noticed the missing washer. I checked another pump and also noticed the washer missing on the upper screw. As you know, that upper screw entails the extra work of removing the lever above the space cam with all the mini spacers, clips and spring. That 's time consuming. As for the flyweights, I am going to play with that idea of weight removal on another project soon. I am going to figure out a way to map the space cam changes when flyweights are lightened.
The 2.4 T pump rebuild I'm finishing up today has been upgraded with a #53 euro S space cam. I am starting the flow tests and calibrations today and will post the results. |
I finished cleaning all the 015 pump parts and installed the #53 Euro S space cam last week and it's ready for calibrating.
Picture of the governor spring capsule: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1243988157.jpg The #53 Euro S space cam: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1243988443.jpg A cleaned plunger assembly: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1243988502.jpg Inside Regulator after cleaning: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1243988600.jpg Plungers and rollers installed and ready for camshaft: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1243988854.jpg Ready for calibrating: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1243988981.jpg |
Calibrating the pump took me a day to get it right.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1243989394.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1243989452.jpg This is what the final tests looked like: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1243989519.jpg Keeping records: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1243989654.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1243989732.jpg Close up of injector at 3000 RPM and full throttle: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1243989870.jpg And test tube filling up fast: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1243989924.jpg The pump calibrated perfect. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1243990076.jpg |
RSR Pump
Mark
Do you have the info you need to do a RSR racing pump, Red Cap? QUOTE=356RS;4698837]I finished cleaning all the 015 pump parts and installed the #53 Euro S space cam last week and it's ready for calibrating. Picture of the governor spring capsule: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1243988157.jpg The #53 Euro S space cam: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1243988443.jpg A cleaned plunger assembly: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1243988502.jpg Inside Regulator after cleaning: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1243988600.jpg Plungers and rollers installed and ready for camshaft: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1243988854.jpg Ready for calibrating: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1243988981.jpg[/QUOTE] |
Congratulations Mark - tear down, repair and recalibration accomplished. You've opened (and conqured) the "black box" of MFI. Well done.:D
Your efforts here and your willingness to take the time to document your equipment, methods, successes (and failures) are greatly appreciated.:) There's another question that I've been kicking around for a while....and it's really the basis of custom space cam design. What is the fuel delivery rate (cc/1000 strokes) vs speed (pump rpm) vs rack position (mm) ? That is - the delivery characteristic of the pump section independant of the space cam..... I assume that the sensitivity to speed (and viscosity) is relatively low. And that it's (roughly) linear (cc/1000 vs mm), and that it's a little different between the early "milled" plungers (2.0-2.2) and the later "ground" plungers (2.4+) assemblies...... |
Fabulous accomplishment Mark! Most people thought what you have accomplished would be impossible outside a Bosch service facility or specialty injection shop. I remembered an old thread, very technical MFI question, wherein Milt AKA: Zeke was considering attempting what you have done and the prevailing view was that it would be impossible. Here is a quote from one of our moderators, John Cramer, in that same thread:
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Thanks to all of you. I've just begun.
Mike: I have some information on the RSR pumps. Scott Kinder is going to send me the data flow specs for the 2.8 RSR pump. Mike Sutter is going to send me an RSR pump after it has been calibrated and I will then check the calibration and document that data on my flow bench. That should give us lots of information. John: Thats a very good question and something I have been wondering about. I can document the the fuel delivery rate at (example) every 500 RPM on up to 4000RPM and show the space cam/rack position in mm at each 500RPM mark. That will take some time but would be well worth it. David: Thank you. I love the challenge and hope to add as much documentation as I can to the MFI community. |
nice job !
here's mine on a #53 cam pump http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1244048412.jpg and a 019 pump at full throttle ... http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1244048509.jpg |
Pump delivery characteristic
Might have answered my own question on this....data from the published test sheet
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1244153685.jpg Now, assuming 18.7mm pitch diameter (ref. late PES6KL) on the rack segment and a 6mm bore, a delivery rate of 10.8cc/RWmm/1000strokes equates to about 50° plunger helix angle..... Similar data across R3, R3Y, R3Z (all use plungers 033/005) http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1244154152.jpg Test validation (or contradictory) data welcome !!! |
Thanks John. Might take me a bit to figure it out.
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Bravo!!!
Well done! |
Mobile MFI pump dyno?
I'm going to bring my MFI pump dyno to the Emory's Campout next weekend. I'll will have to put the 110 volt motor back in so I can use a generator for the pump motor. Might not do well above 3500 pump RPM but I will still be able to give some good tests for a fun demo. Link below for the Campout:
http://www.partsobsolete.com/ |
Interessting thread, thnx
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Thanks for documenting the project. Very interesting.
If you have a picture of the top of the graduated cylinder stand where the injectors mount please post it. I'd like to see how you keep the injectors in place during the test. Thanks Jim |
I used an 1/8 thick steel for the top plate, cut and fitted, and drilled 6 holes, welded nuts on the bottom of the holes for the injectors to screw in.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1262892698.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1262892719.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1262892735.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1262892757.jpg |
I do love it when a plan comes together nicely.
Beautiful work and thanks. |
Mark - you might do a small 'production' run of the parts - it would be nice for the Pcar community if there were several of these scattered around the US.
Very impressive! |
356RS:
Did the info for the RSR pump ever arrive? Gus at Pacifica had told me years ago that he will only do the 001 pump conversions since they give the best adjustment. Have you found that to be the case in your experience or will any old pump do with the proper space cam. Guessing is allowed! tadd |
Gus is right about the early pump for RSR conversions. Main reason is the RSR space cam ( V-94 ) is the narrow style and fits properly in the early governor housing. The later pumps with the wider space cam can be modified for the RSR fuel flow requirements but will not be quite the same as the real RSR unit.
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Thanks Mark!
Would that not also include the 005 then? Gus would only do the 001. Care to guess how hard the V-94 cams are to come by? BTW, I forgot to add the kudos to your triumph. I disassembled my first pump in 2005, then changed jobs, moved, bought a dump at the peak of the housing market, ect, ect, ect. Everything is still neatly in a compartmented box. Maybe once the engine is built... ya right :D. Keep up the brilliant work, tadd |
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