Windshield problems on Carrera

Biff · 07-03-2009, 08:10 AM

This morning I spent an hour and a half with the local Safelite Auto glass technican trying to install a Pilkington WS into my '86 carrera coupe. I used a PP 964 ws seal and it did not go well at all...gaps on sides, lower corner and slightly at bottom - what a pain! I was told by a experienced german collector to use a 964 genuine porsche seal - maybe this was the problem?
So I'm ready to go for the 993 glue in ws. I showed the experienced technican the tread that Axiom describes and has pictures of how to install. The Safelite tech is willing to give it a shot, so he checked the "glass block" dimensions of a '95 993 ws vs. my '86 dimensions and his parts guys at Safelite says they are the same? (So why is a 993 ws so expensive?) So if that is true, all I need is the inner seal (993 541 435 01), the outer seal he said he can use a universal outer seal that he has in several widths.
I'm ready to drive over to Stoddard (one hour away) and ask Mike in parts if I can measure a Carrera ws and a 993 ws to make sure of the dimensions. I'm not up for having a $750 piece of glass hanging around that won't fit!
What do I need to make the glue in ws job work?

Thanks, Biff

Ryce Stallings · 07-03-2009, 04:47 PM

I installed a 993 windshield in my 964 conversion from an SC. I do like it a lot and it will not leak like most 964 installations.

First the 993 WS is expensive because has a built in antenna, a plastic frame that is attached to the glass that allow the outer gasket to be installed and a stencilled edge that is needed to keep the UV off the urethane sealant .

The key is using the correct amount of the urethane sealant. If you use to much it can get past the inner gasket and look bad. The first thing you do is install the inner gasket that presses on to the body lip at the windshield opening (this will make sense when you have the gasket in hand). Test fit the windshield by placing it on the gasket and seeing how it fits. You need to make two settling blocks to position it while the glue is setting up. These blocks will be at the bottom and provide the proper gap from the cowl. Look and see how much sealant you will need to shoot into the gap between the gasket and the body. Use enough so that when you place the windshield on it it will have full contact and displace the selant some. Once it starts to set up remove the settling blocks and fill those gaps. The sealant is really sticky (nasty) so I would suggest taping the body outside the glue area. You need to get the windhield flush with the surrounding body so when you install the outer gasket it will be flat. Forget that universal outer gasket stuff use real Porsche parts. The outer trim is a push fit into the groove that is in the plastic surround that is part of the windshield.

You should find someone with one of these installed before you do yours and look at it. The inside gasket has a different fit from the 964 and you should be sure you will be happy with it afterward.

Biff · 07-03-2009, 06:00 PM

Thanks for your input Ryce. So the 993 WS must also be a bit larger than the Carrera WS - right? Should I use a Porsche OEM WS from Stoddard? This is getting expensive!

mackskibum · 07-03-2009, 06:36 PM

It sounds like the Safelite guy doesn't know how to properly install a 911 windshield. There are a pile of threads on how to do this without gaps and trim sticking out. The shape of the trim and the location of the glass/seal in the window frame are the keys here, as well as the starting point for "roping in" the assembly.

Good luck.

Dave

rnln · 11:05 PM

Biff,
I didn't take any pictures while the installation at AXIOM but below link has some pics after it's done. Basically, they put the outer seal on the glass before installing them on the car. Watching them, look like the process takes a little longer and harder to do comparing with Toyota and MB, which I have replaced in the past. When putting them on, there are still small gaps at some corners. They have to adjust it and glue it to make it's perfect.
At the end of the day, I am happy with AXIOM's work, Rudy, and the 993 windshield and seals. The outer seal is smoother then both 911 and 964. Wind noise reduce tremandously.
PS: The 993 windshield has a very small antena line at the midline of the windshield.
993 windshield.

Biff · 07-04-2009, 03:58 AM

Dave
- This guy was pretty good, he is the go to guy for all the shops around here and works a pretty big radius...Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Buffalo. I don't think it was his abilities. I believe it was the 964 seal (not genuine Porsche) purchased from our host (not bashing PP!), I just believe there maybe a quality difference in seals? Or the 964 seal doesn't work with the mid 80's Carrera cars!?
The front and rear seals on these cars leak and most owner's never ever detect it. I think your going to see a run on WTB's for the rear seat pan/umbrella tray sheetmetal donor pieces...almost all the early cars need them (even California/Desert cars) and probably the SC's & Carrera's soon. This leakage problem has been a constant achilles heel of these cars for a long time....I just want to stop the water leaks and resulting rust issues!
I know the 993 install is not original...but I'm into functionality over originality if it stop water/rust issues and only discriminating guys like all of us would ever detect that it not original to the car. Don't we all want our great cars to last without dealing with rust?!

Ryce Stallings · 07-04-2009, 08:08 AM

I can speak about the Porsche vs aftermarket WS quality.

I live in a rainy place and like the glue in windshield because it will not leak. I do think that aftermarket WS and gaskets will leak if they are not done just right.

Once again before you commit to a 993 WS I urge you to look at the at inside of the 993 WS at the gasket and see the fit with the 964 or 911 interior. It's not a perfect fit, so buyer beware.

dshepp806 · dshepp806's Garage

Factory seals..period.

Appparently, there's a difference?

Mine's coming due,..and I'll be heading to the Porsche dealer on this one (after looking through other sources...)

Best,

Doyle

Cattler · Cattler's Garage

Factory seal AND a windshield tech who knows what he's doing are both required. I just went back for Round 2 with Safelite. After a 7 hour Round 1 that led to a poorly installed windshield with the metal trim hanging out, Round 2 was slightly less than 2 hours and done perfectly. Round 1 involved a 964 windshield with a 911 aftermarket gasket. Round 2 was a 911 windshield with a Porsche OEM gasket.

porschenut · 07-09-2009, 05:48 PM

Why wouldn't you use an 80's Carrera seal?

I've heard too many stories of poor aftermarket seals. Never use anything but OEM seals.

Biff · 07-09-2009, 06:09 PM

I bought an OEM Geniune Porsche Carrera seal from Stoddard. It's the correct one with the channel for black metal trim. I'm going to install it this weekend, I'll let you know how it goes. I'm going to do it myself with help of wifey (hope I don't get divorced!)

I think I'm going to need some luck.

jrumiano · jrumiano's Garage

Biff,
Good move. Take your time and make sure the trim conforms to the windshield exactly before you do anything (without the rubber gasket). Once you have the trim conforming to the windshield you're half way there. Carefully install the trim into the rubber gasket without deforming it (easier said then done). Roping in the windshield is the easy part unless the trim is does not conform to the windshield. Ask me how I know. If you're not sucessful the first time, take the windshield out and start from scratch again molding and shaping the trim to the windshield. The key is to shape the trim exactly to the contours to the glass.

Good luck. And in the event you need a good divorce let me know.

John

Biff · 07-18-2009, 08:30 AM

Success!!

Finally had time two days ago to attempt installation and it went in beautifully on the second try. The first attempt the metal trim was sitting up proud just where the center connector attaches, couldn't get trim inserted back in seal with windshield in place (I heard this was a problem). After you have the nylon rope inserted into the corresponding groove and align the WS it literally only took me 5 minutes with wifey pushing on the outside seal. This was a pretty easy and quick project. I took her out last night in the rain with no leaks!! I didn't use any sealant, caulk or dum dum. A few things I did that I think eased the installation:

1. Use a Genuine OEM Porsche seal from Stoddard. Buy the correct seal for the specific year.
2. Roped in the seal with caulking plastic tip, disconnect from caulk tube, cut tip to be able to feed 3/8" nylon rope thru and feed rope into groove with tip of nozzle.
3. Lube up seal and body with "303" Protectant (aka Armural - but much better)

The hardest part was feeding the metal trim into seal after seal is on the glass WS. You have to kinda of push and twist up the seal onto the metal hook part of trim. I hope this helps!

CBRacerX · CBRacerX's Garage

I really hope I do not need to replace my windshield again, but if it becomes necessary I would stronlg consider the 993 glue in approach. I have the 964 gasket now and I am not that happy with it it (had to add a lot of 3M sealer under it to keep it from leaking).

Jascha · 01:08 AM

Install went bad (got caught in the torrential rain last week driving from Maine to PA)

I hope the PA Pelicans can chime back and help find an experienced (Porsche) windshield installer in the Philadelphia area... I tried my utmost to give the business to a local place but they simply did not have a clue (nearly tore the dashboard looking for the internal antenna hookup).

At least I have a new Sigla windshield (hope the size is correct) but my '89 built was a crossover (after 10/88) and used the 964 seal (without the trim)

Thanks!

CBRacerX · CBRacerX's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jascha

Install went bad (got caught in the torrential rain last week driving from Maine to PA)

I hope the PA Pelicans can chime back and help find an experienced (Porsche) windshield installer in the Philadelphia area... I tried my utmost to give the business to a local place but they simply did not have a clue (nearly tore the dashboard looking for the internal antenna hookup).

At least I have a new Sigla windshield (hope the size is correct) but my '89 built was a crossover (after 10/88) and used the 964 seal (without the trim)

Thanks!

I took mine to Dougherty Automotive a few years ago for this operation (964 seal in '87). They are usually a high quality shop. In this case, it was outsourced and the end result is a leaky windshield (lower corners) that had poor gasket fit. I have since used a tube of 3M windshield adhesive/sealer to try and stop the bleeding and improve the cosmetics with only limited success. So I feel your pain! Would prefer to go the 993 glue in approach if I have to take this on again.

So - to try and add value I would avoid Dougherty for this :L)

Jascha · 08-11-2009, 08:30 AM

Thanks Chris...!

I started a new thread describing the Saga some more here:

Windshield Install Stress Test (failed)

Jascha · 08-12-2009, 06:52 PM

Strictly speaking the 964 seal is not intended for use in pre 1989 3.2L p-cars.

Changes were made (during 10/88 production run) to the windshield frame pinch weld lip to accept the trim-less seal and the slightly larger 964 windshield. Obviously, all 964 p-cars will require the correct glass and seal combination...

CBRacerX · CBRacerX's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jascha

Strictly speaking the 964 seal is not intended for use in pre 1989 3.2L p-cars.

Changes were made (during 10/88 production run) to the windshield frame pinch weld lip to accept the trim-less seal and the slightly larger 964 windshield. Obviously, all 964 p-cars will require the correct glass and seal combination...

I was able to install one in my 1973 bodied RS Replica with no issues, using a lexan windshield...

Jascha · 02:13 AM

It took some doing finding an Installer willing to do the 'revision procedure' (as they say in surgery). I managed to convince him to install (serving as first assistant) a new Porsche (not OEM) windshield gasket. Surprisingly, it still required some stretching (and taping down) of the gasket over the top two corners that tended to collapse inward...Importantly, we used a 4-hour curing sealant all around (glass-gasket and gasket-frame) only after the windshield was 'roped' in.

The best part is that I learned few tricks and met a great guy willing to tackle a problem created by someone else...