Dragging chain out of garbage can. Kno what that means?

Guess I can't complain too much..150K with only the ramps being replaced. Thanks to this board, I knew what the sound was right away and have parked the car until I can get in and see what the failure is. Could this noise (dragging chain out of garbage can) be caused by a broken ramp? Or is this what a failed tensioner sounds like. The sound is very apparent at startup and idle on the drivers side(lower oil pressure) and disappears when under load but returns at idle..regardless of temperature. I have read past posts and have a good idea about the amount of time involved to install Carrera tensioners (5 hrs for Warren...not incl ramps)which means all day for me. I appreciate any advice on where to start...looks like Bruce Andersons book is about to be put to use...once again...Thanks, Chris

Chris,

I don't think a broken ramp actually causes any slack to speak of in the chains, and I believe rstoll didn't hear a thing when his were broken.

So, it more or less has to be a collapsed tensioner, and it has been 22 years, 2 months since I heard that sound out of my engine ... but you don't forget it, EVER!!! And, if there is any sound that sends a chill up my spine, that is it. And it was my driver's side tensioner that collapsed, too!

Well, the muffler bolts, all six of them, 10 mm (a little too big to twist into) ... will give you the most agony! So, be prepared with hacksaw or Dremel tool!

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Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa

Warren sez: < So, be prepared with hacksaw or Dremel tool!>>

Amen to that, Warren! It was the worst part of the job, that and fiddling around with the sheet metal at the rear of the motor. If I had an oxy-ace torch in my shop, I would have torched off the nuts. But then, I might have set the car on fire.... :-(

Regards,
Doug
'81SC

Chris,

Smart move on IDing the sound!

Just a note. When I recently got my Carrera Pressure-fed tensioner kit, my parts supplier called around for a week to find one.
Apparently there is a nationwide backorder on the kits. Pelican actually now lists them as NLA (No Longer Available). The one I got was supposedly (I was told) the last one in North America for the next 3-6 months. But maybe someone out there has one, maybe a supplier on the other side of the pond? Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings.

Best of Luck.

Nick.

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Nick Shumaker
1982 911SC Coupe

Warren, got a question for you. I too am getting ready to do some engine work and wanted to replace the tensioners on my 72 911E. I sure don't want to wait 3-6 months for the Carrera upgrade. Right now things are quiet in the chain department, but as long as I have the engine out what would you recommend if the Carrera upgrade is not available?

Kurt V

Kurt,

While I am pretty far from being Warren,
If you are going to have your engine open anyway, the Hydrastop sleeves that fit over the stock tensioners may be some insurance. These basically function as metal "stoppers" that stop the tensioners from completely collapsing in the event of mechanical failure, and are relatively inexpensive. I would also change the chain ramps while you are in there, also cheap.

Hope this helps.
Nick.

I did indeed have the chain out of trash can sound when bottom drivers side ramp was missing. Chain was dragging on ramp stud. You'll find it during your next oil change.

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Robert Stoll
83 SC
83 944

Anderson's book? You guys need to venture out of this BBS once and a while:

http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/911_carrera_chain_tensioners/911_carrera_chain_tensioners2.htm

It's doesn't get any more clear cut than that.

-Wayne

P.S. 101 Projects the Book, coming this summer!

Yeah, well, Wayne ... why don't you tell them that if they aren't putting in the double-bushing chain-wheel carriers, the whole exercise is a waste of time?

Kurt, get a new set of ramps, a pair of safety collars, a pair of double-bushing chain-wheel carriers, and get your tensioners milled to 10.0 mm around the mounting 'spud.' Button everyhting back together ... and hope the backorder isn't too long!

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Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa

Kurt, I have a pair of the safety collars that aren't doing anything. I changed my mind and sprung for the Carrera units some months ago. You won't believe the deal I'd make you.

And as far as muffler fasteners, someone had a great idea earlier. go the a muffler shop and pay them $10 or so to loosen and tighten them all. Then drive home and perform the surgery. I used sharp nosed vice grips to hold the ramps so they could not fall into the case. You'll see what I mean.

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'83 SC

I don't know much about tensioner kits. But on the rennlist classified board, I saw this:

http://216.64.5.194/scripts/ads/classifieds.cgi?search_and_display_d b_button=on&db_id=6202&query=retrieval

or

http://www.ianseuroparts.com/

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Jack Olsen
1973 911 T (3.6) sunroof coupe
jackolsen@mediaone.net

[This message has been edited by JackOlsen (edited 02-08-2001).]

Quick question on this upgrade: The PO already took care of the Carrera tensioner upgrade, so I didn't have to worry about it. I am unclear about some of the other things that Warren is talking about? Would these be part of a standard "kit"? My wrench told me that the cahins should be replaced before I try to do any Autocrossing. Should this have been done with the upgrade, or is it an independent fix? My '83 has 93k on it. Thanks!

Wayne, you are absolutely correct. I spoke too soon about Anderson's book (concerning the chain tensioners). After opening the book to research what I would be doing...I found his book inadequate (in need of viagra)concerning this subject. When reading older posts about the noise.... I saw that you were planning a tech article concerning the installation...I visited the article and agree that this is superior over anything out there. I will be in line for the book when it is published ...March 1st, right?


BTW, when are you going to have the Carrera tensioner update kit available???

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Shakenbake (Chris Baker)
1974 911 Coupe
'91 "A" stock champion WV
'90 SCCA FTD
'99 SCCA 3x "A" stock winner

Magilla,

Your chains are more than likely just fine ... if significant grooves or wear pattern is found on the sprockets, then yes, there is a problem, but the chance of that being the case is very remote! Your SC is just getting broken-in. You should consider finding a different mechanic ... that one is trying to scam you on the chains, more than likely!

No, the chain ramps aren't part of the 'kit' ... but they need to be changed anyway. That plastic used for the ramps gets brittle and they break into pieces ... don't worry, though, the oil strainer keeps them in the sump!

Your '83 model SC already has the double-bushing chain-wheel carriers.

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Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa

Warren - as you know I just finished buttoning up my 930 motor. Everything internally was fine, but while it was apart I thought it best to replace the chain, ramps, etc. as cheap insurance. I don't recall what I paid for the chains, but it didn't seem bad. I don't think this is bad advice unless the owner is on a tight budget.

As you guys might have seen I am upgrading my tensioners as we speak. Just so you know I got them at Automotion aka Performance Products. Delivered in three days. So they were available last week at least.

You are right though, the muffler bolts were the hardest part so far (Dremel). I am putting a test pipe on also. Should I use stainless bolts to put everything back together?



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Gunter
'82 SC Targa

Not to sound too clueless, but what damage is caused when the tensioners fail?

Sure the chain probably jumps some sprockets, but I thought the pistons and valves were gapped so they would not collide? Other than that I can see a mess in the chain covers and some horrible sounds but that is it.

When I asked my mechanic what to do about hydraulic tensioners he said not to worry about it. He argued that if you pay attention to the chain noise at 2000-2500 RPM that you can hear failure coming. Also he said that he has seen the oil lines to the hydraulic tensioners break and do the same damage a mechanical tensioner failure would cause. Basically he said to put on the "collars" and forget about it until the chain started to make noise.

As a note, I have a 79 SC with 185,000 miles with a never cracked engine and I cannot hear any chain rattle. I am not sure if "collars" are on the tensioners, granted I really want to know for safety sake.

Okay you can begin the flames now

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Adrian Pillow
1979 911 SC
1966 VW Microbus
PCA - Peachstate Region

Adrian -

The 911 engine is what is known as an "interference" engine, meaning at the full-open state, the valves would collide with the piston. In the event of a tensioner failure, the chain could easily jump a tooth on the cam or crank, and whammo, your case is now air cooled from the inside as well.

For a little under $400 you can have cheap insurance that it would never happen. And as far as oil lines breaking - well, two things. The oil line would have to break (easily detected since it would be spewing oil all over the engine bay) and the tensioner would have to fail, simultaneously.

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Mark Szabo
1986 911 Targa 3.2
1987 Escort 5-speed 1.9
The Porsche Owners Gallery

Ahhh. Interesting, I thought they could not make contact.

I am then guessing the intake valves would be the interference and snap, but the exhaust should be okay. Granted you are F'ed in either scenario.

Well I have been looking for some unique aluminum door stops

Thanks!

Jack, you said...

"I don't know much about tensioner kits. But on the rennlist classified board, I saw this:".

After everything that we've witnessed you upgrade to your car, you didn't upgrade the chain tensioners? Now I'm wondering whether to keep the stock tensioners.....??