Brake upgrade questions for an 87

[mtnfir]

Hey all,
I am signed up to do my 4th de at road atlanta this august and am needing some advice. My only issues thus far have been overheating and brake fade and now lately, my car pulls to the right on heavy braking.
I plan on installing rotor cooling ducts and new pads.
My questions are these:
1. what brake pads should I use for a stock 87 that sees both street and about 5 DEs per year? I have read that pagid orange kinda suck.
2. From what I have read, it sounds like I need to replace the flexible brake lines as they are the likely culprit for the pulling to the right. Is that accurate?
3. WHile I'm in there, are there any tell tale signs that I need to replace the calipers?
4. What about the wheel bearings? should I do something to them too?
5. ANything else that I'm overlooking?
thanks

I'll also be doing VIR in november if things work out well. Wooo hoooo

[RWebb]

1. Porange need to be heated up a bit to work well. Old technology...

2. maybe

3b. Did you check thickness & runout on the rotors?? own a dial indicator?

4. yes, check them - search for how

Air Good! So do that for sure.

[midnight911]

devil is in the details but here's my take...

1. I used Pagid RS14 and PFC97. Both works well, but PFC97 is more of my taste.
2. If it's old, change. It's easy and one of the least things you can do quickly. Stock rubber ones go for miles and years. I don't think I need stainless braded ones although some of them are cheaper than stock rubber.
3. check for sticky piston. no need to replace calipers. rebuild and get new seals. at least very likely your outer dust seals are shot. I rebuilt the calipers last year. Easy, but requires patience to go through bleeding multiple times.
4. +1 check them. less likely a source of immediate failure as long as it is not grinding.
5. could be anything, eg suspension component wear. caster. alignment. bushing. tire pressure. My friend once was complaining about pulling to the right, soon later we noticed that he had different brand tires left and right...

[tonythetarga]

Don't forget to use really good fluid. In my opinion, ATE Blue or Gold just isn't good enough. I use Elf but Motul is also excellent.
Have you removed the stone guards behind the rotor?? You need to removed the whole hub to get those off (remove caliper, undo wheel axle nut and pull off hub. Check the bearings while your there, repack and install. As mentioned, have a close look at the rubber boot on your calipers. They 'cook' and crack from DE use. If that is the case, order a rebuild kit and re-do then calipers. It is an easy job but pay attention to the 20 degree setting for the caliper piston. Do a search and you'll see what we're talking about. Easy to make the tool.

[JeremyD]

#1 if you are using a Carrera at the track you need to make sure the brakes are in tip top shape. that means - change the soft lines - if you don't know the last time they were changed - change em. That also means rebuilding the calipers - it's easy to do - just take your time - plenty of threads on here. The carrera brakes are two piston affairs - makes it easier.

#2 pads - you need a decent pad to handle the heat that the carrera brakes are capable of - it comes down to brand preference - but the PFC97/PorterfieldRS/HawkBlue [insert favorite track pad here]

#3 Fluid - needs to be AT least fresh ATE Super Blue - I prefer the higher grade/temp - use Motul 600rbf - but if you are having fade recommend castrol SRF

#4 cooling - you got to have it with a carrera - that means at the minimum 993 brake deflectors or A arms scoops - better if you can force are in from the front valence.

That's my take.

[Steveinatlanta]

Hello, my name is Steve, and I have an unhealthy obsession with Road Atlanta….

I had this exact problem in an 86 Targa. Hopefully you can avoid some of the expense and mistakes I have made. Just assume “Ask me how I know” in my suggestions.

3rd DE, Road Atlanta, brake fade – most likely you are using your brakes too much and won’t be able to stop it for about 5 more DE’s (turn 1, 10a) Google some Road Atlanta videos – that really helped for me. It also kind of added cement to the obsession.

The only way you are ever going to feel confident and comfortable at a fast track is to go through the brake system. Don’t know your mechanical ability, but rebuilding brake calipers is pretty straightforward. Get Wayne’s book, buy a lot of brake cleaner…

If you do rebuild calipers, go out and start WD40’ing the hard brake lines before starting the project. Whatever you do, don’t break those. Get the wrench Wayne describes in the article. Get help, take your time, use a flashlight, apply heat, do a search…

If you can afford it, replace the rotors at the same time. Whatever you do, don’t buy cross drilled rotors. If you are heating up brakes, they will crack.

Don’t use Hawk Blue brake pads. They were the best, but eat brake rotors. 2 to 3 DE’s equal new rotors. PFC97 (Porterfield, call CSTREIT – motodelta motorsports) or Hawk black.

Brake cooling really didn’t help – It helped some when I started using Hoosiers

Motul 600 really did help. Learn to bleed your own brakes and do it at the track. Don’t learn to bleed your brakes using Motul 600. It’s VERY expensive. Always remember – brake fluid takes paint off cars. It ruins carpeting if you get in on your shoes.

Were you at the August PCA event? I was there also in a Black 86 Targa.

I hope this helps

[KTL]

Agreed that the pulling sounds like a sticking caliper. You should definitely go through the brakes VERY thoroughly since you've got more issues than just overheating, AND you are unsure about the age of certain brake components. I don't mean to sound like a holier than thou kinda guy, but brakes are the most important thing to have when hitting the track.

Definitely pre-soak the brake line fittings a day or so in advance. A lot of crud and corrosion builds up on the flare nuts and you can break some of the fittings. Don't be afraid to scrape away the crud first, to allow the penetrant to get in there. Make sure to get penetrant in where the tubing goes into the back of the nut.

If I were you, i'd:

1. Rebuild all the calipers with new seals. Why? Because everybody I run with has to rebuild their stock calipers after every season of track events (~6 events/days on average). Usually by the end of the year, one of my friends finds a pool of brake fluid on the floor due to a leaking caliper. This proves that the stock brakes on SC and Carrera cars take a LOT of heat abuse and caliper rebuilds are a regular maintenance item

2. New flex hoses. You don't want one of these bursting on you. The inexpensive factory ATE rubber lines are perfectly fine for track use. I've used them for years with no issues and always have a rock hard pedal.

3. Check your rotors for wear and rust contamination. Rotors that are near min. thickness and very rusty inside (as in, big flakes of rust falling off) are not going to shed heat well.

4. Clean out the old grease and repack your front wheel bearings. As long as the bearing rollers and races in the wheel hub are not scratched or heat-colored, simply repack with new EP wheel bearing grease. The front bearings are very robust and rarely need replacement. Any quality extreme pressure grease with Moly (molybdenum disulphide Mo S2) will do. I like Valvoline Synpower and alot of people like Mobil 1 red stuff. Again, any grease will do- Castrol, Coastal, Shell, Mobil, Valvoline, etc. etc. at your local parts store will do. Doesn't have to be synthetic.

5. Cooling is VERY helpful. That's what rotors do- they provide a friction surface and also a means to cool the brakes, hence the reason they're vented. I've used the 993 scoops with decent results, but there's no substitute for getting air into the rotors. Keeping your brakes cooler goes a long way toward not only reducing/eliminating fade, but makes your pads and rotors last much longer.

6. ATE blue or gold TYP 200 is the minimum fluid you should be using. Anything else just won't cut it.

7. Absolutely use a true race pad like the others mentioned. A "combination" pad is a compromise and you'll likely end up overheating them because these brakes are right at the limit of capacity. Switching pads is so easy on these cars, one shouldn't try to use a pad that serves both street and track needs. PF97 is our pad of choice with the locals. No complaints ever about them. They work cold or hot, wear well/last long, easy on rotors, and you can use them on the street but they'll dust ALOT