ROW Car - Tracking down EPA and DOT docs?

[SeaDweller]

I just received a letter from my insurance company, notifying me that they "just determined my '78 Porsche is a gray market car." This is despite the fact that I told my agent this when I insured it.

In order for them to "continue insuring the vehicle," they have requested that I provide EPA and DOT documentation. I did not receive these documents from the PO, and admittedly, I didn't even think to ask for them. The car has been in the US since '82 I believe, and has been registered since that time. It was obviously registered when I bought it, and I had no problem obtaining a registration of my own. Furthermore, before they did away with inspections here in Florida, the car passed with flying colors.

Wouldn't the car have to be DOT and EPA approved before the initial US registration was issued?

Can anyone lead me in the right direction to track these documents down?

I tried going on the DOT and EPA web sites, but the DOT site is worthless, and the EPA site is not even accessible.

Any help would be most appreciated!!!!!

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Michael
'78 911SC Euro

[thabaer]

Enough grey cars have been done with shady documents that the insurers can cite that to have legitimate concerns ( some of them must be after extra revenue ) about the safety/completeness of the US mods. Fair reasons for the change may be due to losses blamed on lack of US safety gear, or they just learned how to read VINs.

At any rate, assuming no legerdemain occurred with the original US registration, at least in Colorado the DOT and EPA were required when I brought mine over.

Some of the mods were a joke. Your year and mine did not have crash protection in the doors, the jokers who did mine made it out of black pipe and used two screws thru the rear door plate and one in the front. The screws were rusting along with the holes they drilled, and after I saw what they did I was more worried about getting the pipe through my ribs more than being hit without it.

Also check to see if a VIN sticker was installed in your A-pillar, it should match the plate in the front trunk. That assumes they used a better glue than they did on the one that blew out of my window.

Your county clerk or whoever handles vehicle registration may have contact information for any DOT or EPA certification that is required; it can be a serious pain in the bureaucracy, but somebody there should be able to give you local office info. The Boulder County clerk kept the German papers that I received with my car.

You might look into a title search, if the car has stayed in the same state, they may have all the info on file. If it came from out of state, that data is often required to create the new in-state title. One of those $25 web VIN history searches also might be worth it if they help you track down the paperwork.


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Charlie Baer
'79 Euro 911SC

[Andy Snow]

Michael,

I got this information from George who was “MACHINTEK” on this board.
Call Ethel Harrison, from the EPA at 1-202-564-9271 in Washington D.C. She’s a nice lady and very helpful. Giver her your VIN number and she will see if they have a record of you car. You will need to have DOT fax them their information. She can tell you who to call but it will probably be Kathy Rice at 1-202-366-5291. MACHINTEK thought Ms. Rice was not helpful and recommended I call **** Merritt at the DOT at 1-202-366-5300. However I found Ms. Rice OK to work with. You will need to send approximately $30 to DOT for them to process the paper work and fax EPA, though they will take a credit card number over the phone.
It worked for me.
Good luck.

Regards -Andy 84 Euro Cab

[Andy Snow]

Now that’s funny. The board censored the guy’s name he really is named “****” it’s a common nick name for Richard. Can’t be too careful I guess.
-A

[SeaDweller]

Thanks everyone!!!

I contacted George Entwhistle with the DOT, and Ethel Harrison (what a sweetheart!!) with the EPA, and had all of my documentation in 2 days!! Total cost for this endeavor? A $19 processing fee charged by the DOT.

Having bought my ROW car emotionally, and without any research at all, having these documents in my hands is quite comforting!!

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Michael
'78 911SC Euro

[machintek]

This really warms my heart to see the fruits of 2 months of effort being put to such great use. George Entwistle is Richard Merritt's boss and I am glad to see that Richard is still around.
Please call the EPA first. She IS a sweatheart and the EPA has a lot better records than the DOT. Miss Rice was a hinderance to my efforts and caused me to fax every compliance converter for records and tracking down every person in the US with the same name as the importer of my car with no positive results.(Even tried the US Customs.) EVEN though Miss Rice talked to the EPA many times a day, she never clued me in to call the EPA. It was not untill I had no where else to go that I tried the EPA and within a half hour it was all taken care of. Remember that by law this documentation is necessary to legally sell the car and must follow the car. Glad it was painless for you guys.

George/machintek
83 911SC Cab/Euro/US Marshal auction/drug dealer special!

[machintek]

Another clarification: My car was registered in Georgia and 4 times in Alabama. No one could provide the DOT /EPA letters. The US Marshal Service obtained for me the entire history of the car from both states in an attempt to help me out. Since I and the Marshals had stirred the pot and alerted Alabama about the necessity of this documentation, after I had titled my car I received a letter requesting the same documentation they should have had all along.
Therefore not all states are aware of this and you may get away with it but because of computers it is getting harder to get away with it. Some wing nut at a state motor vehicle place back in 1993 decided that all cars must have a VIN in the dash (ROW cars do not have this) and a VIN was made at a trophy shop and pasted in. Unfortunately, the drug dealer's eyes did not work very well and a S became a 5 and a D became a 0. So guess what? The VIN on the titles after 1993 did not match the DOT/EPA letters. Fortunately I had contacted Porsche in Atlanta who obtained for me a letter from Germany listing VIN, engine serial number and trans serial number. This was of immense help when the State troopers inspected my car to acertain the true VIN etc. They advised me to throw out the fake VIN and refer to their inspection report the next time another wing nut insists on a windshield VIN. Lastly all this was started by my insurance company when I tried to insure the car. It was their PC that raised a flag that this was a ROW and started this quest. FYI, Carfax could not bring up this VIN. Hope this collectively gives you a better idea of what I went through. I learned a lot. If you have questions, email me.

George

[SeaDweller]

Indeed, I was very concerned when I received the request from my insurance company to provide these documents. Like I mentioned before, this was an emotional purchase, and I had done no research on these cars at all, especially with respect to buying a ROW car.

My insurance company stated straight out that they would cancel the insurance without these documents. You can imagine the questions that went through my head; if I can't get these documents, how will I insure the car? If I can't insure it, I can't drive it? What about selling it in the future? My ultimate fear was having to leave the car sit idle in my garage!

Oh well, thankfully I was able to get the documents without much hassle, and I sure feel much better now that I have them. I've sure learned some hard lessons with this car, so at least I won't make these mistakes over again............

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Michael
'78 911SC Euro

[Joe Bob]

ON MY ROW 911, I was informed before I bought and have all the docs. Even with the docs and a brother in law as my agent, the insurnace company still had a problem with the three ZZZs in the VIN#.

They insisted that I read it wrong, even after I sent them copies of the owners papers, the registration and the DOT docs. It just goes to show that there are stupid people everywhere.

Hey Machinetek...did you ever put those bigger sway bars on? They cut my time down at Willow Springs by 2 seconds a lap.

MikeZ
Santa Barbara CA
83 SC, euro cabriolet