Thanks! this is why I would love to have your heat exchangers with the B&B I would have to dump my center exit 2 out muffler to their side exit single out and have to redo the rear bumper:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1253760426.jpg

Let me know when they are close I suspect I can sell my SSI's and cover most of the purchase price.

Very interested in a heat exchanger version for a 2.7. And yes, I'd pay a little more for "Made in the USA". Outstanding work!

Love this car. More pics please... (front)

There is much data supporting the need for larger ID primaries on engines displacing 3.2L or more. This is the reason we offer 1.625" and 1.75" versions.
Yes this system is designed to work with early stock muffler components. It is not good to have your options limited by the use of a specific muffler or related component. That is part of the pricing consideration. You can save a bunch of money if you already have an M&K or early style stock inlet muffler. If not our host carries them.

Are you planning on dyno testing these units against others?
Evidence of performance gains would be a good selling point.

Looks like the potential for a very good product. Just don't take anybody's money until they're ready to ship............ :D Sorry, that was a shameless dig for those who've suffered through the ongoing 17" Fuchs episode.

Ouch............. :(

I'm anxiously awaiting to see the heat exchanger setup. Since these headers can use a standard early style muffler buying a set would make the exhaust portion of my 3.6 project go alot easier!

I gotta have heat!

The length of the primaries is critical to where the power band is in the rpm range. With shorter primaries the power band will be at higher rpms than with longer primaries. Will there be dyno tests run on these with comparative results posted?

No, I have not taken any deposits. These headers are in production now. Contact me to get in the next run.
Yes dyno testing will be done on the various sizes. It is impractical, if not impossible, to test against every known manufacturer and every engine combo so we will use engines with the proper displacement for each size.

What size primaries should be used on a stock '95 3.6 engine in a primarily street driven 911?

stock 993 headers/HE are 1 3/8th ID so the 1.5 inch header should be perfect for street . though you could bump up to 1.625 for maybe just touch better all around performance

I have a local guy using stock 993 exchangers on his race car who may do some dyno testing with our system. It will be good to see the difference these headers make vs 993 exchangers. The design of course is completely different as the 993 exchangers are short un-equal length tubes with a smaller ID. I would expect a significant increase over stock by allowing the engine to breath better with an equal length system.

I have been asked many times about installation. Being a DIY guy, installation ease was high on the priority list. These headers can be installed in minutes using no more than a ratchet wrench and extension. All nuts are easily accessible and the gasket protectors make installation a breeze.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1253934465.jpg

It's the removal of the rusted on monsters that are the nightmare... :D

What is the introductory pricing for the 1.625" headers in 321 and T304?

Thanks!

Don't forget the 993 heads have threaded holes for both 993 exhaust flanges and 911 exhaust flanges.

I'm thinking about ordering up a set of 1.625" headers with 911 flanges. Then if I decide to use them on a 993 engine I'll just swap the 993 exhaust studs over to the other holes. If I don't go with the 993 engine I'll use the headers on my 3.2 engine.

Just another option...

T304 will be offered later as it is thicker wall and heavier to compete with the quality of 321. The 1 5/8" primary version will run ~$125 more than 1.5". Introductory pricing will be extended throughout the first production run of each size.

Excellent work!!! I will be considering the completed units with heat exchangers when they are ready as well.

Any new news????

Headers are in production, many sets sold. Heater boxes are a couple of months off and will be sold at a discount to all who have purchased headers and want heat.
I've been busy lately trying to get my car to the dyno to test the new headers for that application. Have a slight problem with the tranny ...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-930-turbo-super-charging-forum/461519-latest-project-headers.html

Will it be necessary to switch to the earlier oil lines (akin to backdating exhaust) for us 3.2 owners if we use these?

Nice!

Couple of thoughts.

Carrera & SC cams are low overlap and I suspect are not very sensitive to primary tube length. Then should respond well to being equal length, a larger diameter, and thus less restrictive. However, dyno tests would still be nice.

Tunable length: I wonder if with this design it should be possible to make extensions in different lengths that could slip between the primary tube's and collectors. Could expand the race car market.

Maybe Ben could make a muffler where the secondary pipe remains straight. Then the secondary tube could come in different lengths or a cut to fit to better allow for this.

Cats With the shorter design, for some it might allow fitting a set of high flow cats just after the collector and before a custom muffler. Having a straight secondary design might accommodate this also. Or the collector could be the cats.

Just some crazy thoughts.

The headers have been designed for use with the stock oil lines.
Interesting idea to have adjustable length primary pipes. This system is not designed for the race car market but rather high performance street. Heat boxes would be no issue if race only.
I will be working on a CAT system soon.

I'm curious what extending the tubes before the collector would do. I noticed on a friends 3.2 (I think they are old B&B's with square heater boxes) that the collector is just before the muffler/tailpipe (when no muffler) flange so that the three straight tubes are about 12 inches longer. Is that for more top end power?
:confused:

It's actually the opposite. Shorter moves the power peak up, and longer down. But, as pointed out above other factors can mitigate that. Such as cams. And, depending on the application, the length might not be the a huge factor. It seems that the case is being made that for the street, with stock cams, the size is the most important factor.

Buckley Racing
 

321 SS is not lighter than 304 SS. The densities are nearly the same. You did not specify what wall thickness you are using. 321SS does have better strength at higher temperatures, which allows a thinner tube and therefore less weight - so if the headers are 18g 321, they will be lighter than 16g, 304ss. But no question, 321 is a better material.

IMHO, the headers are too short and do not take advantage of merge collector technology - leaving some powerband on the table

Another set of headers is available form Buckley Racing Buckley Racing - 911 Racing Headers

These are stepped headers in 304SS and utilize real Burns collectors. I am not sure what the selling price is. These are fabbed from 304SS, 16g. With the megs, they are not applicable for the street, but could be with modified collectors.

Vince
Burns Stainless LLC

'97 993 Cab, Arena Red

Vince, those look like well made units as well. The site doesn't state what the gains of 10hp are compared to. Other headers,? A stock system? A stock system with cats and muffler? If the latter, that's less than I would expect.

Those buckley headers have the same overall shape/final length before collectors as the ones on my buddies 3.2..

I believe they told me it was compared to the best "other" system out there. I do not believe it was a stock system. If you are interested, give Bryan or Jim a call. They are great guys.

Isn't it in pretty poor taste to advertise someone elses product on anothers thread?

At least they have dyno results posted. I am suprised that so many people seem to be lining up to buy these headers with no proven results. These are PERFORMANCE street headers and they are not cheap. It would be nice to see if there really is a performance gain.

It is well known that shorter primaries will raise the rpm range of the power band. It is a misconception to think that bigger is better as well. Larger headers increase the flow capacity of the headers but it also reduces the flow velocity, which kills low end torque. The limiting factor in stock engines are the head ports and cams, not the headers. To really get the performance increase in a street engine the lengths and diameters do matter.

From the looks of it, these headers will produce power at much higher rpms than a 911 engine can turn. With a larger diameter primary one will sacrifice low end torque and the engine will still be choked by the heads at higher rpms.

These headers look very nice and they are well made but the tube lengths are not an arbitrary design variable. I guarantee that the guys producing racing and performance headers are not throwing darts when it comes to the lengths and diameters of their primaries, secondaries, and collector designs. An excellent book on the subject is 'The Scientific Design of Intake and Exhaust Systems' ISBN-10: 0837603099.

BTW... In the spec 911 racing class, mostly stock 3.0 liter SC engines are producing 260-265 Hp with 1.5" headers. The engines are limited to: Carbs or fuel injection (no slide valves), stock euro pistons (9.8:1 CR), stock heads (no porting), stock cams, stock valves, stock crank, NO twin plug, and stock rods. This is an optimized package that would easily be streetable. With 1.5" headers that work very well with the intake system and a redline of ~7000 rpm this is pretty good power from a 3 liter.

Great information Bob, thanks. You certainly seem do know what you're talking about. Just thought it was a bit cheesy to mention a competitor.
And with most things in life, length & diameter do matter ;)

Real nice. Thanks for stealing the thread and posting competitor information. My headers will be sold by our host.

As for the length, they are the same length as RSR headers and are packaged for use in high performance STREET cars. No modification necessary and you can use any dual-in muffler. I recommend M&K of course and they are also sold by our host.

I'm going to look at longer primaries for the Motorsport version of my headers which will not be compatible with standard dual-in mufflers.

As for dyno testing, we have race shops now tested against other brands. I will also dyno sets on street cars with stock 3.0L - 3.6L engines.

Weight. Yes 321 is lighter than 304 because the wall thickness on 304 must be much thicker to last as long as 321. These are high performance sports cars, why would you put heavy anything on them if there is an affordable alternative? 321 adds ~$200 to the cost of a set of my headers over T304. We will offer T304 for that savings to those who choose it.

My design is no accident. It combines the best of all that exists, including merge collectors which are every bit the quality of anything else out there for the money. We are making a custom set of headers right now using Burns collectors for a client that requested them. We also started a set using Burns in inconel that was aborted by the client due to cost. I don't see a need to re-invent the wheel and will implement other manufacturers products when I can. Burns collectors cost 4.5 X what mine do so are not feasible to hit our price point.

I absolutely build what the client wants and what will best serve the community and am biased to no single manufacturer. There are manufacturers that I won't use because they sell garbage. I can sell whatever I want so am free to choose what is best.

Relax Brain, there is a $1000 delta and everyone knows the quality you offer. Also remember, Pelicanite's are usually pretty "thrifty"... for lack of a better word. I know i'll be geting my muffler from you when (if) i'm ever ready.. as long as you can do the "GT3 Cup" pipe setup for me, which i'm sure you can.

What are the lengths of the different headers.

I suspect Brian's are not shorter than the George's European Racing headers.

If anyone is up for measuring any of there systems some that would be interesting might be:

Brian's
Euro George's
SSI
sCarGo
B&B.
Bursch (sp)

Would just be an interesting point of reference.

Right, but have you seen where the RSR's power band is? To get to those rpms they needed special cranks with fillets, forged rocker arms, and huge ports. The RSR engine was a pure race engine designed to make power at high rpms. A street engine needs to at least be driveable and make power in the lower rpms (4000-6500 rpm. That would dictate longer primaries on the smallish size.

No worries but the waters become muddy when prices are not included in the mix. Many folks just scan these threads and pic up partial information that then becomes fact in their minds.
Price is a HUGE issue and I want everyone to realize that. These headers are not meant to compete with those costing twice as much. Speaking of which I mis-spoke about the cost of our collectors, they are only 2.5 x less expensive than Burns. Still quite significant and necessary to keep to our price point.
I've looked at all those headers listed plus others and they all have different length primary tubing. Ours are about packaging vs optimal performance for a wide range of engine displacements, tuning and modifications. Our option is tubing ID size.
This is important: To maximize HP to a specific engine configuration the headers must be custom built. Obviously this would be quite expensive as tuning would also be involved.

I apologize if my post was in bad taste:o. I saw that RARLY8 mentioned Burns collectors, so I felt I could step in and offer my opinion. I also wanted to make others on this forum aware of some other options.

Bob is correct in stating that primary length is critical to header tuning. Street cars, more than race cars can benefit from the mid-range power enhanced by relatively long tube headers.