Noob (mostly) 911 Steering "feel" question

[Mr_SpongeWorthy]

Bear with me here, it is a long question, but the rather lengthy description is necessary due to the extremely subjective nature of the question:

OK, I've been seriously considering jumping into the 911 club. I do have limited experience driving a 1980 911 German import (helped my father research it about a year ago. He purchased it and it has been a great car so far.) I've driven it about 6 hours and 7 minutes total. 3 highway, 3 back roads and 7 minutes in an Autocross

What struck me the most was "that 911 road feel". I'm very comfortable with the rear-engine layout, so I'm not talking about the feeling of weight in the rear (a wonderful tool in autocross), but specifically about road feedback through the steering wheel. My father's 1980 feels like I'm caressing the road with my hands. Every single tiny imperfection is communicated beautifully into the wheel. If you're in a corner and there is a slight undulation, groove, or other imperfection in the road, not only do you feel the undulation, you can also feel which side of the car it is on. I swear you can almost feel how deep it is also. Despite this amazing agility, it is also relaxing and easy to drive on the highway. Straight as an arrow and perfectly stable.

I've just test-driven two 1986 911s. Both of them feel like pretty decent cars. They ran strong, drove straight and feel nice. But both of them lacked something in the feedback compared with my father's car. The steering wasn't "dead" certainly, but that brilliant instant feel was muted compared to his 1980. Since that is the only baseline I have for comparison, I don't know if there is something different about my Father's 911, or if I'm feeling worn-out front-end parts in these 1986 models? Should there be a substantial road-feel difference between the 1980 and 1986 models? (My understanding was that the suspension on these models was basically identical.) Might it be something as simple as an alignment difference?

Any input would be greatly appreciated!!!

[McLovin]

An 80 and 86 is essentially the same steering and suspension.

Tires, tire pressure and alignment all have a HUGE impact on steering feel.

[Oh Haha]

Originally Posted by McLovin

An 80 and 86 is essentially the same steering and suspension.

Tires, tire pressure and alignment all have a HUGE impact on steering feel.

+1
I can tell a difference from mine in other 911's I have driven. Some better, some worse.

A thorough PPI will confirm of dismiss worn front end parts.

[RWebb]

did the later car have power steering?

tirres, alignment, etc. can affect this, BUT others have the same perception you do

[gtc]

The '86s are probably a little bit heavier too.

[SpeedracerIndy]

I think the weight of the car will have an affect too. My 81 euro no-sunroof coupe feels much more nimble and communicative in steering than my dad's 88 Carrera Targa. Mine feels like it has power steering compared to his too because of the weight difference. It is much more nervous and jumpy over bumps, where as the Targa is very squishy and muted.

[McLovin]

Originally Posted by RWebb

did the later car have power steering?

No power steering on any of the torsion bar cars. Power steering started with the 964.

I don't think the weight difference between an SC and an 86 Carrera would make a perceptible difference in steering feel (the components are too much the same), esp. when considering all of the other huge variables involved.

[Flieger]

+1 on alignment and tire pressures (and tire/wheel size).

[lindemans]

The 86 should be capable of providing the same feel as the older one you're familiar with.

Like others stated: the car is very sensitive to:

- quality of tires; due to the weight in the back, handling is very very sensitive to stiffness of the sides of the tire, for 16" far better tires are available on the market (tires with Porsche N-coding)
- suspension is a specialist job to get that right; unlike common springs the older 911 has torsion bars that need to be pre-set through manual adjustment to have equal load on all 4 wheels; only someone who really knows what this means can adjust this using a weight scale under each wheel; this is way beyond standard adjusting the front wheel alignment alone !!

These 2 items can make or break the handling of the car dramatically.

And of course low tire pressure, especially in the back, is killing

[Fast Corners]

Turbo tie rods make a huge difference as well. If the '80 has the upgrade to the turbo tie rods and the '86's have the standard tie rods you will feel a very noticable difference.

As others mentioned the alignment and tires make a difference. This does not even cover different torsion bars and or shocks and condition of bushings which have an effect on road feel too. It is phenominal what a good shock can do.

I'm going to throw my $0.02 in on the weight thing though. Even though the steering mechanicals are the same, the responsiveness and feel through the steering wheel, seat and pedals of the heavier cars to me feels slightly muted. Without pondering the question too heavily, I would say the inertia of the heavier cars has an effect on the "feel". My '73 back in her stock days felt more in touch with the road than the SC's let alone the Carrera's.

[burgermeister]

Condition of the rack makes a huge difference also. The grease can dry up and leave the internals with quite a bit more friction than intended. Friction is good for suppressing smooth road shake issues, and bad for road feel. The rack can be easily disassembled and re-greased (search for Tim Hancock and steering rack).

[RWebb]

Originally Posted by Fast Corners

Turbo tie rods make a huge difference as well. If the '80 has the upgrade to the turbo tie rods and the '86's have the standard tie rods you will feel a very noticable difference.
...

Hmmm... have you compared the turbo with new non-turbo tie-rods?
- these issues just came up on the bushings thread, currently active


BTW - nice double pun on pondering the wt. issue

[DanielDudley]

I drove an 89 speedster a few years back with the turbo look body and wheels. It was one of the nicest feeling 911s I ever drove for steering feedback. It had 50K on the odometer, and was very original except for tires.

[Fast Corners]

Originally Posted by RWebb

Hmmm... have you compared the turbo with new non-turbo tie-rods?
- these issues just came up on the bushings thread, currently active


BTW - nice double pun on pondering the wt. issue

Thanks

Back in my wrenching days (late '80's to early 90's) I did make the Turbo tie rod conversion to a couple hot rodded Carreras (which were only a couple years old at the time). Usually people are not swapping out the standard tie rods for no reason so the comparison does not come up that much.

In my opinion I think the Turbo's make a noticeable improvement. I read the other thread and have a few points to offer.

One thing to keep in mind is diminishing returns. If you have already set the car up with a lot of upgraded equipment, the difference in "feel" of any one particular improvement will have a tendency to be diminished in the grand scheme. For a stock road car the improvement of that one thing will "feel" like a greater change.

Two "feel" is definitely in the hands...butt...feet of the beholder. Some people are just more sensitive to the changes than others (I'm not saying that you or Bmeister fit in this category...if anything I would say it is the first one for you two). I once had a DE student that could tell even the minutest changes in yaw angle with is butt however his feet were made of pure concrete. Brake modulation was totally lost on this guy. My guess was that his a$$ was more directly connected to his brain than his feet were. End result of one session at Moroso was a trip straight off into the weeds on freshly squared tires.

Third thing is that rubber stores quite a bit of energy as it deforms. The absorbtion of energy reduces the magnitude of the transmitted force through that part. This can also be interpreted as a loss of feel. This is exactly the point of the big rubber disk at the base of the steering shaft...to reduce kick back through the steering wheel (and on to the nut that holds it...sorry couldn't resist). This is also why Porsche spent so much development time and money on the new dynamic motor mounts on the GT3 (greater response and reduced shifting of mass when you need it and more complancy when you don't).

[dw1]

It is possible that the difference in tire & wheel size caused much of the different "feel".

15" wheels were more common in '80, 16" in '86.

Type & width of tires? Inflation pressure? Both can cause VERY significant changes in steering feel.

One should also not forget to look at any difference in ride height, and whether the "bump steer kit" spacers were installed if the car was lowered.

Because I wanted to drive my car in cold weather, I went to ultra-high performance all-season tires. Results: poorer steering precision in hot weather, but better in cold weather.

My car ('87) is also lowered to euro ride height, and has the "anti-bump steer" spacers installed, which made an enormous difference.

[Tyson Schmidt]

SC's almost all came to the U. S. With Bilsteins.
Later Carreras almost all came with Boge Turgo- Gas shocks and struts.

I've also noticed that the Carreras with these Boges do not feel as light and nimble, and have a heavy, dead steering feel.

[Bart_dood]

Originally Posted by McLovin

An 80 and 86 is essentially the same steering and suspension.

Tires, tire pressure and alignment all have a HUGE impact on steering feel.

+1, I have an 1988 and did the turbo tie rod upgrade, had the alignment professionally done and have high performance summer tires on the front. The steering feel is great and was one of the main reasons I bought the car.

[longhornchris04]

I can't separate the effects out, but I had the turbo tie rod upgrade & shocks replaced (w/ alignment, but the car's alignment was in spec before the suspension work).

Steering feel went from good, to I just ran over 2 quarters and a nickel. Ok, not that good, but I could definitely feel the road better - while simultaneously having fewer bumps translate to the chassis.

Tires also make a difference - and getting the right tire pressure is free. Tie Rods, well those cost a bit more.

[RWebb]

Originally Posted by Tyson Schmidt

SC's almost all came to the U. S. With Bilsteins.
Later Carreras almost all came with Boge Turgo- Gas shocks and struts.

I've also noticed that the Carreras with these Boges do not feel as light and nimble, and have a heavy, dead steering feel.

interesting

Tyson - have you driven Carreras with Bilstein repl. inserts in the Boge housings?

[KNS]

I agree with Tyson, I have found the same thing in steering and ride qualities (and how they were equipped) between the SC and Carrera.