3.6 conversion: Any 'while you're in there' things I should do before installing?
 

Hey guys,

I'm contemplating installing a stock '95 993 3.6 engine in my '77 chassis in place of my current euro spec 3.2. Is there anything I should do to the engine, or any upgrades I should consider, before I install the engine in the chassis?

Here's a quick overview:

1. '95 993 3.6 engine, basically stock with recent rebuild. SAI delete, K&N air filter. Very good leakdown and compression numbers.

2. I'm not sure which exhaust I'm going to run yet. It'll probably be either 993 HE's with a Dynomax 2 in 2 out muffler OR 3.2 HE's with premuffler and M&K 1 in 1 out muffler.

3. Functional heat is a requirement. I've got a RS heat tube ready to go.

4. I plan to eliminate the stock dual pulley setup in favor of a single pulley. I'll probably leave the stock 3 row crank pulley in place.

5. The clutch is fresh. All the oil seals look good. No leaks.

6. I plan to add a Steve Wong 93 octane chip set up for a lightweight flywheel.

7. Initially I'll run a single Carrera cooler with fan. Eventually I'll add a second Carrera cooler to the drivers side.

Is there anything else I should consider? Cams? Backdate the fan for more airflow?

Does anyone have a guess on what the rwhp and torque would be for the above setup (SW chip, dynomax muffler, 993 HE's, PMS flywheel)?

Thanks for the help!

7) will be inadequate might as well have oil temps under control from day 1. Be sure that the engine mounted oil temp sender matches the dash gauge. Ditto oil pressure sender though this one is easy to live w/ if there is a mismatch

RS cams are nice if you have a spare $1k or so. No fan mods

How would the RS cams change the feel of the engine?

Now is the time to clean the engine/compartment up

'95 993,RS heat tube, K&N, RS cams,
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1255954871.jpg

RS upper & lower pulleys, RS console(AC mount)
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1255954895.jpg

My engine already has the A/C deleted and the engine carrier modified accordingly.

I plan to do the single pulley conversion but will leave the stock crank pulley in place.

How about mono balls or new inner banana arm bushings? Apparently a lot easier to do with no drive train in there....

-michael

Already done. I did that before I installed the 3.2.

Great idea though!

Scott -
I saw the FS add in the classifieds for your 3.6 - if my fall income outlook wasn't so bleak, that motor would be going in my '74 instead of your '77! At least it will be put to good use. I will follow your progress on the install and take notes for when it's my turn as it looks like most of your requirements (like heat for example) match up with mine.

Tom

Ok, how about the obvious brake upgrade ;) I did not see any mention past the Carrera fronts you put on during your build thread.

-Michael

For a street car I don't see the need for bigger brakes...at least not right now.

If/when I start tracking the car I'll consider bigger brakes at that point.

:cool:

Oh come on now. Just buy the 3.6 so I can stop thinking about this stuff! I'll throw in a couple extra goodies...

:D

Believe me, if I thought I could buy it and remain (happily) married, I would! If we could work out a payment plan. . . say. . . $100/month. . . for what, like 100 months? How's that sound? : )

Wait... are you selling the 3.6 or are you converting to it? Or was that just a typo and you guys meant the 3.2? Not that I care too much, but always nice to get one's facts straight ;)

-Michael

:D

Confusing, isn't it??!!

Yes the 3.6 engine is still for sale. I'm surprised nobody has stepped up to purchase it. It will remain for sale until the time comes that I get time to install it in my own car. At that point it's no longer for sale! But if it sells before I get a chance to install it in my car then so be it...

I really really like my existing 3.2, which makes the decision to swap in the 3.6 difficult. If I had an engine that needed rebuilding I'd have already installed the 3.6!

So yes the 3.6 is for sale, and yes I'm continuing to gather pieces for a 'possible' 3.6 install in my car. Just in case it's still sitting in my workshop when the time is right...

Ummmmm.......no.

I'd consider trading the engine for a BMW E36 M3/4/5!

:cool:

Trying to follow this thread - yes confusing. You are swapping out a Euro 3.2 for a 3.6....I didn't see the obvious question asked so I will - why?

Properly setup Euro 3.2 with exhaust, chip etc you could get around 235-240...I would guess and a 3.6 properly setup, but stock is about 265?? Trying to remember but I think there was a thread on this and my numbers could be way off but that is alot of change for +25-35hp?

Maybe with the mods you have listed you are pushing 300hp?

I have to be missing something -

Ahh --- you mentioned something I wondered about. Why? Why swap from a euro 3.2 to 3.6? I've been thinking for awhile that perhaps I shouldn't....hence one reason the 3.6 is currently for sale.

I'm taking my 3.2 down to the dyno tomorrow to see how it's doing. I've never had it on a dyno but it feels a good bit stronger than other 3.2's I've driven. Part of that though may be my lightweight '77 chassis and short tires.

You're right though --- it's a lot of work (and money) for an extra 30hp over a euro 3.2.

What about the additional torque of the 3.6? Any ideas on how much additional torque the 3.6 would have over a euro 3.2?

how much does a 3.6 go for?

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-used-parts-sale-wanted/502320-fs-feeler-1995-993-3-6l-engine-conversion-parts-va.html

Well don't let me sway you or factor into your decisions based on what I say, I don't know much...just specualtion on my part.

Lots of people punch a 3.2 to 3.4 or 3.5 what then roughly turns out to be the same cost as a 3.6 swap - in the end its usually like a $10k proposition with the motor on the other end sold - results vary and this comes up alot. 3.6 you get a known motor - modded 3.2 is a different animal...all I guess what you are after.

All pros and cons - I opted to lose weight out of a mid 80's Carrera to increase my power to weight ratio (cheapest, easiest, most reliable in my mind) - sounds like your 77 is pretty light already. With a chip, cat-by-pass and sport muffler my 3.2 is pretty healthy also.

I think you would find that your Euro 3.2 is kicking it out pretty well on the dyno - no idea about a 3.6 on torque.

now I have a dilema!

What's your dilemma?

:D

I've got my car in for an engine rebuild. but I am wondering if a 3.6 is a better bet? but i am not able to go to virginia to pick up. and so the dilema of what to do...

I was just looking at the dyno charts on SW's site. Hypothetically speaking going from a healthy euro 3.2 with chip/bypass/sport muffler to a chipped '95 non-vram 3.6 is about +30hp and +30 ft lbs of torque.

If I had a worn out stock us-spec 3.2 engine the decision would be easy. However that's not the case...

A friend of mine offered to consider delivering it for me for a small fee...but NY may be a bit further than he wants to travel.

If you happen to know someone that's going to VIR sometime soon with a truck and trailer then delivery could be easy!

so pulling out the 3.2 and putting the 3.6 in is straightforward?

400 miles one way

With the package I have --- yes. It came out of an SC. It's plug and play. Just add exhaust.

Pull the 3.2 engine/trans/dme/dme harness/coil/fuel filter. Remove 3.2 from 915 trans. Install 3.6 to 915 trans. Install 3.6 engine/trans/dme/dme harness/fuel filter. Pretty fresh clutch included. Add 3.2 exhaust system or use the included 993 exhaust flanges along with a Dynomax muffler and keep the 993 HE's.

Now if you're like me, and want the engine to look as good as it runs, and have heat, then there are a few things that I would do:

Clean/modify/weld up up the 993 engine tins to fit the engine bay seal better, and see post #1 of this thread!

:)

If you've got a truck and can meet halfway then it may be do-able.

you've got me thinking for sure. I have to hear back from the shop about the engine first. and I will hear them out on this as well. I will keep you posted.

No problem. Just let me know...

Uh...not trying to squash a sale but I guess I would have the same question to you as asked previously, what is the reason behind this as well? - if your 3.2 is tired and you are refreshing that is one thing - certainly cheaper to do that than go 3.6. $6k probably to do right with some mild performance updates on the 3.2.

You are still looking at $10k for the 3.6 - minus your engine that needs to be rebuilt anyway so you are in for alot more...

Sorry - again I guess I am missing something as this makes no sense for 30hp.

I guess people never really factor in the other updates a 3.6 necessitates - body wise, oil coolers, brakes, suspension....and on and on...

I am not going at this blind, I am looking at what is involved and have a great shop to help me decide. so I know I won't wind up making a rash decision either way.

Estimated cost of 3.6 install when replacing worn out 3.2:

$9k 3.6 engine + conversion package
$500 exhaust
$1k second cooler (for example 2nd Carrera cooler in drivers side fender)
$1k go fast goodies for 3.6

$11500 DYI install - $4k for selling 3.2 core engine = $5500 for 3.6 upgrade from 3.2. I'd be shooting for 290 hp 250 ft lbs of torque.

OR

Freshen up your existing 3.2 for $6k+.

To me it makes sense to do the 3.6 engine conversion if you currently have a tired 3.2 (or 3.0, or whatever). But if you have a healthy 3.2 then maybe not. Although if you have a healthy 3.2 it could probably be sold for more than $4k, further bringing the cost of the 3.6 swap down.

I didn't include brake upgrades in the 3.6 cost. IMO that's a different project.

3.6 upgrade is a no brainer in my opinion! Took my 3.0SC up to a nicely modified 3.2, then to a 3.6. The 3.6 upgrade was certainly more work than the 3.2, but I
I was delighted when it was all done! 3.2 was no comparison to the 3.6!
The 3.6 is a much better motor on so many levels. Porsche fixed a host of nagging problems with the earlier motors. i.e. chain tensioners, ceramic lined exhaust ports, better piston oiling, twin plug ign, 8 bearing crank,knock sensors,
bigger oil pump etc.
I did my 3.6 retrofit way back in '92, when very few folks had done them. Did a lot of learning by doing, but I would do it all again. After nine 911s, from a '68 up to my current '80SC 3.6, I couldn't imagine being more pleased! My ride doesn't take a back seat to a 964 or 993 performance wise.
Grant

Depends on the future plans... I think there is way more potential in the 3.6 then the 3.2. So down the road when you get the urge for more kick in the pants you just up it to a 4.0 ;)

but, IMHO, there are several other areas of the car that will need to be upgraded along with the engine so its not just a straight power plant swap and go running... Scott's done a lot of those already so it makes sense here to drop it in. For the other guy who has not, there would be brake and susp. upgrades that would need to be done to handle the new plant safely on the roads when moving briskly ;) that takes some $$

Enjoy!

-Michael

I just got back from my dyno session. This morning we ran my car on a Dynojet dyno and the results are 206.02 rwhp and 188.99 max torque.

My 3.2 engine has SW chip, euro premuff, and M&K 1 in 1out muffler.

For comparison the '95 993 engine SW has on his site lists 247.38 rwhp and 229.87 max torque.

Another interesting statistic - at 5k rpm the 3.6 has almost 45 rwhp more than my 3.2. At 4k rpm the 3.6 has about 30 rwhp more than my 3.2. The torque differences are just about the same.

Oh yeah...we weighed the car too. It came in at 2361 lbs. with a mostly full tank of gas, and spare wheel/tire, but no driver.

If you back date the cams to solid lifter and use the Porsche super sport grind, you could expect about 275 rwhp and 275 rwtq out of a '95 993 engine.

This is my setup.

If the rebuild is done right, $9k is a nice deal for the package.

Doug

The 3.6 is just a smoother running more modern motor. no rubber junk to corode better injection period. and o yea you can tell the difference in a 3.2 and a 3.6 when you hit the peddle diiferent beast. Kevin

Comparing a mid year car with a 3.6 and one with a 3.2 is like comparing apples to.... well, comparing apples to the best effin apples you can get your grubby hands on. The cost analysis is also correct, no reason you can't sell the 3.2 and recover some money. Anyone who says that there isn't a worthwile benefit to 3.6 vs. 3.2 is simply not in tune with their car. Also, I think $6k to rebuild your 3.2 allows for a lot of assumptions, ie. good P's and C's. There's no way you can go bottom to top through a 3.2, and make power upgrades for $6k. It's just not going to happen. AND you're probably going to have to buy a clutch and flywheel WYIT, which it sounds like it's being included in the conversion parts...... I know where my money would go.

Please someone show me an 11:1 compression, 964 cam, twin plug, 3.2 that will start and run reliably every day on pump gas....that you built for $6,000. I'll paypal you money for a pitcher of your favorite beer.