Let's Beat That Dead Horse Some More:

[cegerer]

I had my first chance to take some time and seriously examine several 996's yesterday. The only other 996's I've seen were moving on the road or posed in magazine photos. At the Stoddard swap meet & show, the perfect opportunity presented itself. Examples of nearly every flavor of 911, old and new, were on hand.

My conclusion: the photos in the magazines simply do not do the 996 justice. It is even more bland, boring and Pontiac Sunfire-like in real life! Jack (or somebody?) did a good job critiquing the 996 in a previous thread, but I thought he was being, perhaps, a bit harsh. Not any more. Go back and read the post - it's all spot on. While the headlights don't bother me that much, the front end is grotesque. No question, the Boxster is the true Porsche of today.

[This message has been edited by cegerer (edited 06-10-2001).]

[josh912]

I LOVE the 996!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And the 996 is by all means a TRUE Porsche and a 911 at that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Joshua Harrison
1968 912 Coupe
www.geocities.com/jkh912

[Wayne 962]

How odd, I think that the Boxster and the 996 look almost exactly the same. If I don't have my glasses on, I can't tell which one is coming at me.

Especially with the 996 convertible. I think this car looks like a slight variation of the Boxster.

As for the general looks, I didn't care for it at first, but now it's growing on me. I like it better than the 964 look, but I think I like the 993 look better than the 996...

-Wayne

[Clutch]

My first thought when I saw the 996 was, how plain (ugly). Not much character in its looks, not distinctive like the 993 and the years before. I did however get to drive one and drive it hard at the porsche driving school here in Atlanta, www.porschedriving.com. The driving school is conducted at Road Atlanta Race Track, it is a two day course designed for those who have receintly purchased a new porsche or are considering purchasing one. Driving that car was the most incredible experience of my life, a complete adrenaline rush. What this car lacks in looks, it more than makes up for in handling and performance. The ugly duckling is a complete swan when it comes to performance. The only modification to these cars is a sport exhaust, sounds pretty good. Why do these "sports" cars have to be so quiet and plush? Don't they know it just adds weight? Anyways, if you have an extra couple thousand dollars lying around and want one of the best vacations a guy could give himself, come to Atlanta and give it a try. They will not hold you back at this school, you'll be able to go as fast as you dare (buy the extra insurance $200.00). A little pre planning is requied though because, I think there is a 1 year waiting list. I was lucky my sister runs the school, sometimes its not what you know, but who you know :-)


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Mike Libbey
77 Targa

[Jack Olsen]

The ugly duckling is a complete swan when it comes to performance.

Very true, and very well said.

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Jack Olsen
My Rennlist home page
My Pelican Owners Gallery page
My Porsche Owners Gallery page

[Obin Robinson]

Clutch,

one of our friends went to the Porsche School at Road Atlanta a year ago. he has 6 Porsches, and he never was too attached to his 996 until he came back from the school. he said similar things to what you said. apparently those who think that the 996 isn't a fast car are the same people that get scared to shift at anything above 3000rpms (no matter the car they're in). he said he got going around 130mph in no time, and the big downhill drop was pretty scary at first. after he got back from the Porsche driving experience, he bought a 996 Turbo, and another 996. we've only seen him in his older 911s once since he got back from the Porsche driving experience.

when exactly did you go? he might have been in your class.

obin

[cegerer]

From the front, yes, the Boxster and 996 look very similar. But at least the Boxster has something going for it - the unique styling at the rear!! The 996 will go down in P-history right alongside the 928 - a great performing car that nobody really gives a $hit about.

And yup, 996 performance is outstanding. That's a given. But so what when it's wrapped in that Pontiac-inspired body shell. I can buy a $10 Timex digital quartz chronograph-type wristwatch at the corner drug store that will outperform any $9,000 Breitling manual - obviously, performance is not the sole factor when making certain purchase decisions.

Let's plan to meet back here in exactly 10 years and see who was right.

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1971 911T - 2.5L Big Bore

[not_sure]

Truth be told, if I could afford it, I would be driving one. I love 911`s, but there is somthing to be said for that new car smell.

Tom
old ass 71T

[Obin Robinson]

Originally posted by cegerer:
And yup, 996 performance is outstanding. That's a given. But so what when it's wrapped in that Pontiac-inspired body shell.

there was NO Pontiac inspiration in the design of the 996. i don't know where you got that information from, but it's wrong. the 996 design influence is pretty obvious if you ask me. something tells me that you don't even know who designed the 996 (or the 993, or your 911T for that matter).

as for "nobody" caring for the 928... keep on thinking that way. i'm sure it will win you lots of friends/"nobodys".

obin

[thabaer]

Funny, the rear quarter treatment is the main thing I can't adjust to on the Boxster. It's Butt Ugly! ;-) (too late in the day for puns?)

To be honest, I still refer my SC as a stink-bug from time to time. The early one-piece Carrera tail helps make it look a little sleeker. I think after we experience driving one that we become infected with the same delusions of beauty that keep mothers from drowning their young at birth.

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Charlie Baer
'79 Euro 911SC

[This message has been edited by thabaer (edited 06-10-2001).]

[Bill Wagner]

Can either of these new cars (Boxter or 996) be worked on by a home mechanic? I've heard everything on the Boxter needs to be accessed from underneath, and from what I've seen of 996s, the same appears to be true. I've also heard that Porsche isn't selling parts for some components (like the transmission) and that if a repair is needed, you do a swap out with a rebuilt unit.

The "swap out" policy REALLY bothers me, if it's true. I owned a Dodge Stealth RT/TT with a Getrag AWD transaxle before getting my '91 C4. Getrag and Mitsubishi (the Stealth is a re-badged 3000 GT VR-4) implemented a "swap out only" policy on the transaxle...even if it's something relatively minor such as an the input shaft oil seal failing. The transaxle isn't particularly reliable (for example, I had mine swapped out under its 70K warranty at about 60K miles because of a leaking input shaft seal, but the most common failure is for the 2nd gear synchro to fail). Had I not bought the extended warranty, this would have cost up to $8000. The effect of this "swap out only" policy is that Stealths and 3000 GTs are worth about half of what their other Japanese counter parts are worth (for example, a 93 RX-7 or 300ZX TT will run in the mid teens, typically about $14K, whereas you can pick a TT version of the Stealth or VR-4 up for as low as $9K RETAIL, often $7K in trade).

Are the newer Porche's being made unrepairable by DIY's and independent shops??? I've also heard this policy was implemented with the transaxle on the 993. Is this true?

Thanks,

Bill Wagner

[This message has been edited by Bill Wagner (edited 06-11-2001).]

[Jack Olsen]

There was NO Pontiac inspiration in the design of the 996. I don't know where you got that information from, but it's wrong.

That anyone should have to make a clarification like that is evidence enough that there's something gravely wrong with the current Porsche flagship's design.

Of course no one assumes that the Porsche designers were literally looking at Pontiac's lineup and cribbing lines. But by falling victim to the same cost-prioritizing (and focus-group-muddied) mentality, the company ended up with something that looks an awful lot like a Pontiac -- and a number of other current (garish, awkward) automotive exteriors.

As always, I want to note that the 996 is a phenomenal street and track performer, a grand tourer that performs like a great sportscar, and wraps up a whole bunch of awesome engineering achievements in its Pontiac sheet metal.

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Jack Olsen
My Rennlist home page
My Pelican Gallery page My Porsche Owners Gallery page

[This message has been edited by JackOlsen (edited 06-11-2001).]

[paulhagedorn]

Hey Bill.

I hope the cars are made a little better than the Mercedes. A friend of mine has an ML430. After a little over a year of driving and 107,000 miles, the transmission exploded internally. The reason for the amount of miles is that he is a travelling salesman, but he drives mainly on the highway. I don't see why the transmission should have done what it did, although the transmission does lack drain and fill plugs! You can not change the fluid it without having to take it completely apart.

Something just strikes me as wrong with that thinking.

Paul

[cegerer]

I know who designed the original 911. I don't know what group of designers are responsible for the 996. But if you beleive it was an individual effort, you're falling prey to the P-marketing department. Of course, no car is designed by a single person these days. But that's not the point anyway. Had the P-design department come up with something outstanding, I'd be the first to praise it.

RE: 928. I'll repeat, it's a great car that nobody cares about. Otherwise, their resale value wouldn't be half (or less!) of a same year 911 that cost less when new.

[Obin Robinson]

Originally posted by cegerer:
I know who designed the original 911. I don't know what group of designers are responsible for the 996. But if you beleive it was an individual effort, you're falling prey to the P-marketing department. Of course, no car is designed by a single person these days. But that's not the point anyway. Had the P-design department come up with something outstanding, I'd be the first to praise it.

RE: 928. I'll repeat, it's a great car that nobody cares about. Otherwise, their resale value wouldn't be half (or less!) of a same year 911 that cost less when new.

so you DON'T know who led the design team for your car, the 928, the 986, or the 996 then? if you don't know, then please don't make it sound like you're qualified to talk about car design.

of course no one individual designed the 996, there are team leaders. the credit goes to whoever led the design team. on average there's around 200 people that work together to design a Porsche. the team leader(s) get the credit. on the same token, if 10,000 soldiers invade a country and win a war.. it's the generals that will go down in history to get credit for the attack.

back to the original point... saying that Porsche was influenced by Pontiac to design the 996 is purely WRONG information. i still have no idea who you're getting this sort of garbage from, but please don't spread it to others so that they will be misinformed also. let me guess, the ones you heard it from are the same ones you got the information about on the 928. i know that bunch.

obin

I have been very negative towards the 996 due to several reasons. One of them was the sound. After having heard a couple of 996s pass by and do parking manouvres I was very disappointed. To put it short: Booooring.

However yesterday I heard one accelerate very hard. That made me more positive towards the 996. The sound was actually very nice. It sounded hard, metallic and screaming. In some points quite similar to the aircooled models. Still I missed the sound of the air blower fan.

[billwagnon]

Hey, maybe what we need to use here is a "sarcasm alert" before we say things like Pontiac-inspired design . I agree there are design elements the 996 has in common with Pontiacs and Toyotas.

The performance of the new 996 may be phenomenal. The attractiveness of Butzi's 901 design through the 993 was due to the curves. The roundness implies "This is a car that likes to turn!"

The new design is more akin to a bullet - long and sleek.

The existence of the 993, and the 959 to some degree, seems to affirm the idea that the 901 design could be updated without losing its essence.

Irrespective of any actual performance (I'm sure the new can run rings around the old) the old design just looks more fun. This is of course my own opinion. Your opinions and reaction may vary.

[911racer]

OK Mr.cegerer,
I like the way you talk very confidently about things that you have no clue about. Personally I'm also getting tired of reading about this same old topic every week, week after week. If you have nothing new to say, then don't say it. If you go by the sales records, there are lots of people that like the 996/Boxster. Those same people don't go around every week telling you how cr*p they find your older 911. So, live and let live.
Here are a few facts from the inside: The Porsche Styling Studio is quite small and every new model exterior have only one primary stylist, and maybe sometimes an assistant to help with little detail work, but that's it. There are no "Styling" teams, every model is the personal taste/opinion of one person. (There are Engineering design teams, but that does not influence the styling.)
If you need to know who did what:
993 Tony Hatter (British)
Boxster show car Grant Larson (American)
Boxster Grant Larson
996 Pinky Lai (Hong Kong)

Regards
Stef

[This message has been edited by 911racer (edited 06-11-2001).]

[Obin Robinson]

well said 911racer!

add this to your list:

996 (Harm Lagaay). Pinky and Harm get credit for the new Turbo though. Harm is the "big boss" in te design bureau so he also seems to get lots of credit for the Boxster too. he's a design genius and i hope to meet him in person some day.

http://www.porsche.com/english/911/models/turbo/ontheroad/design_noflash.htm

"Design Director Harm Lagaay promoted the conception of the style. Design Manager Pinky Lai drew up the first sketches and coordinated the project."

you would not offhand know what happened to Antonio Lapine would you? i've been trying to track his whereabouts down for a while now. i'm tempted to fire off an e-mail to Porsche to see if they know.

thanks!


obin

[pwd72s]

You pays yer money & makes yer choices...I loved the looks of the 993. The 996? Eh? But since I have no plans to pay my money, guess it really doesn't matter. I'd rather put the cost of a 996 in a GNMAE fund (at this time). Oh wait a sec...I did that! The newer cars may be blindingly quick, loaded with comfort features, and chick magnets...but they bore me to tears! Yesterday, I had the pleasure of eyeballing The Emory's "special" while it was on a lift. Now that was exciting!