Real Fuchs vs. Replicas
 

Is there an easy way to tell a real Fuchs wheel from one of the replicas?

Jack

This is worth a read


Fuchs means fox in German. There is a little caricature of a fox's head stamped on the backs of all early Fuchs. Some earlies have it on the hub. But, most are adjacent to the "901..." part number. The fox heads on the hub are much larger than the ones appearing next to the "901..." number.

There is also a date stamp on the back of the hub. It will have the month and year. For example: "1 67" - January 1967. There are also other various esoteric forging numbers, letters, characters, etc. that the manufacturer used. These differ widely even among same size & date wheels.

Many early 4.5's have no "part" numbers stamped on them. These "part numbers" were originally forging numbers used by the Fuch company and not "part" numbers. (Otto Fuchs Metallwerke, commonly referred to as "Fuchs," is the company that made the wheels for Porsche; there are many, many other kinds of "Fuch" wheels - you just wouldn't ever recognize them...) The forging numbers were commonly ground off after forging. Later, these forging numbers became part numbers...

It gets a little more confusing... Some early 6's have the .04 number - again, the numbers were used for forging purposes and i'm sure are right for however they kept track of them, or maybe a few workers were just lazy in changing the serial numbers... Again, they couldn't have been that important if they ground most of them off! I even have a set of 6's with "901...00" part numbers! Also, Fuchs first appeared in late '66. There were 5.5's, 6's, and 7R's in '66! There had to be. All Porsche's racers were using these cutting-edge wheels. Different wheels for different applications...

7.0's had a rubber stamp part number - the metal stamp was almost always (basically read "always") ground off. Also, the metal stamp would not be .05, it would be whatever number was being used to make the 6's at the time, since they used the same forging piece for the petals or spokes. However, the sides and backs are unique and very recognizeable to the R wheels. Thus, custom-made R wheels are easily identifiable. Some 6.0's even end with .00 (very early). {I have (4) of these wheels.} It's possible to have R's with .00 forging numbers too. 6.0 Fuchs made for the 911R race cars had a .03 ending part number. Now, those are some extremely rare wheels: {24 cars (4 prototypes and 20 production cars) x 2 wheels(fronts) = 46 + 23 spares = 59 total !!! Ever!!!}

Incidentally, in "901...04" the "0" refers to the center cap style (3-prong). The "4" eventually, referred to the wheel size... Is there an "901...02" ? Could be. Maybe a .02 modification was done and Porsche said, "Uh-uh. That doesn't work," and trashed the whole .02 series. There are other gaps in Porsche part number series and oftentimes this is the case...

There are no fake 4.5's - yet. Also, they would be easy to identify because of their weight and especially all the little details that would surely be lost in the casting process. All original Fuch alloys were forged wheels. This process is very expensive, but extremely effective in producing a strong wheel. The back of 4.5's are also unique...yet similar to R's.

In the May 2000 issue of Excellence on p.108 Jerry Sloniger states, "If we give the standard wheel a cost baseline of 1.0, Fuchs estimates that the hollow-spoke aluminum wheel has an index figure of 13.0, a mag wheel 16.0." That means quality wheels are 13 to 16 times as expensive to produce! As you know, most automakers will dive head first at the opportunity to cut costs and put out junk instead of quality - (my opinion.)

Fuchs' contract gave all the tooling to Porsche. Sadly, Porsche no longer has the tooling for the early 15" Fuchs. They still have the tooling for the 16" and did a run of 500 wheels some years ago.

Great read. One question, I always hear about the real Fuchs having a "heart" next to the part number. I am guessing its actually the FOX's head you mentioned.

That would be correct. The heart is a foxes head

Look for stampings/casting on the back that look something like this:

From a pair of 16x7 Fuchs:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1204603844.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1204603829.jpg

From a a pair of 15x7 Fuchs:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1188168533.jpghttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1188168693.jpg

From a 15x6 Fuchs:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1077664083.jpg

Fuchs
 

Thanks for the great information. Now I know I have a set of replicas.

Jack

I have a set of 4.5x15 "Fuchs" wheels that I bought used in 1985 to put on my 1966 911. I've been trying to determine if they are "originals". I've read the above and there seems to be some doubt about the markings on the really early wheels; I've just cleaned my wheels up and they show the following markings, all the markings are in the indent nearest the wheel opening: three of the wheels have "770" stamped in the indent and one has "670", two have the letter "F" stamped in an adjacent indent, one has the numeral "0" at that location, three have the number "41" stamped in a recessed "oval". All stampings appear to be from the same "script". Any ideas on what this means in determining originality?

Just to confuse things a bit, on some earlier fuchs (including the 7R) the cutout adjacent to the valve stem and closest to the rim has a small protuberance that makes it heart shaped. These are referred to as fuchs with hearts -- see, e.g. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads16/Fuchs+7R+15x7+w+Heart+02a1266007294.jpg

Quick eyes will note that almost all replicas have the petals ending in a sharp point versus a more rounded end.

While we are on the topic, I have no idea why people are charging the same or more for 16x8s than the cost new from Porsche right now. It's absurd, especially when you factor in the risk of wear/damage/stress/every idiot's chroming and polish job.

You need to post a picture of the stampings. It would be immensely helpful.

Euromeisters don't. But you can ID these by the machine marks on the rim and the thicker material of the centers.

Euromeisters are fatties!

Bet they are almost twice as heavy as Fuchs.

Original vs replica Fuchs Wheels
 

Thanks to all for looking at my post on my "early" Fuchs wheels. I have taken pictures of the stampings on my wheels and a couple of shots of the wheel for a general idea of what they look like. I'm not real "techy" so I hope I can get the photos on here.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1440366367.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1440366439.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1440366487.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1440366532.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1440366571.jpg

Sorry to stray off topic but my 17" x7 and 9 euromeister wheels are not heavy at all.

Hmm, we have a car at work that I'll have to look at again. Possibly there are fake Euromeisters too.

Wheels just above are real.

I agree. Slightly heavier than original Fuchs, but no where near twice the weight others suggested.

Have a set they are lighter then fuchs

manbridge 74: Thanks for looking at my post and responding. Two other individuals who have physically looked at the wheels told me they were "real", may I ask what convinced you of the originality of them? Thanks, Jim

The serial/part number or lack of, is the dead give away.

That would be worrisome given that they are cast.

The new real deal Fuchsfelge seem pretty light.

Front: 17x7 ET55 | 16.5lbs | $698
Rear: 17x8 ET52 | 17lbs | $738
Rear: 17x9 ET55 | 17.5lbs | $778

I just took delivery on a pair of Euromeister 16x9. Each box weighed 23lbs. There was a thin foam sheet and piece of cardboard. I doubt packing materials weighed more than 1.5lbs.

So they are substantially heavier than real Fuchs.

What's substantially heavier?

My 16X8 Euromeisters were only a couple pounds heavier than my 16X7 Fuchs.

A couple pounds (~10%) a rim? That's substantial for rolling weight. Half that would be troublesome. A quarter of that would be pesky.

16x7 Fuchs are a little under 15lbs a peice, 16x8 Fuchs are 15lbs 5oz. 16x8 Euromeisters are 22lbs a piece, making them more than 40% heavier than either. That's a pretty big penalty, especially as we are talking about unsprung weight.


With a good wheel you get to pick two of the following traits:

Light
Strong
Cheap

With a bad wheel you get one or none. Euromeisters certainly check the cheap box, and might check the strong box. They weigh enough for cast wheels to be somewhat promising in that regard, but there certainly isn't any definitive information.

patz, a "dead give away" of what? Read "twistoffat" above, if "he" is correct it's relevant. As I stated above, I've had two individuals that deal in Porsche parts deem them "original", I'm just wanting to NOT misrepresent the wheels since my intent is to sell them. Jim

I just called automotion where I got my 17" wheels and a 16x8 is 20 pounds right from the horses mouth.

Jim. I have no idea if your wheels are genuine Fuchs. However, I find it disturbing that you do not include a picture of the cast in mark that looks like a fox head (which is their symbol). Typically, high end manufacturers include trademark Item like that to help detect fakes.

If it was me, I would post at the Early 911S Registry and give them a chance to tear you apart. There is a ton of tribal knowledge over there on all things early 911.

Pelican claims they are 22 pounds.

I can weigh a 16x9 Euromeister tonight on my bathroom scale and report back. The wheels I have, have not been balanced or mounted so no valve stems or wheel weights.

The metal grain appears like every other forging from the Fuch line. Nice and smooth.

I also doubt there would've been a market back then for fake 4.5s. Certainly not low weight forgings.

From the Early 911S Registry Forum:

Fuchs 15 x 4.5 part number 901.361.012.01

pair 5.5 x 15 fuchs dated 3/68

Note the stampings.

Its the date codes for concurs etc. Look at the value of a 76 930 for example. Most owners want date code matching 16x8s when they restore them.

That makes sense for the ones people haven't botched with chrome/polish/whatever, but prices in general are nutty.

Eight worn lug nuts says those 4.5s are real!

Jim, weigh one of them.

The simple answer is yes.
The forged wheel is much thinner in the spoke areas.
The cast wheels are very thick when you look at the back of the spokes.

The read from the German is mostly spot on except the 4.5X15 replicas have been out for many years. From the front very close but the insides are very thick and machined rather than forged looking angles.

And Fuchs can still make the late (flat) 15s and 16s if enough are back ordered.
But early (deep-901 style) wheels not so much......more of a liability problem I was told.
HTH
H

Jim,
The wheels in your photographs are Fuchs.
The markings are consistent with 4.5X15 replacement wheels available through the parts dept. They were made well into 1970....maybe later but the latest that I have on file is 7/70.
BTW, if they are for sale let me know.
HTH
H

Harvey:
Thank you for "weighing in".

I am surprised by the lack of the Fuchs Logo. It would have made me suspicious.