What exactly is normal "operating temperature"?

[naparsei]

Drive it how you want. Change the oil more. If you take 2 years off the life of the motor over the next years, you'll just have a chance to build a better, faster motor sooner. I would assume most people on Pelican bought their car to enjoy and to drive, so do those things. I try to drive my car anytime I can, and I just don't go WOT until she's op temp. It usually gets there, but not always - sometimes I drive just 3 miles. There's a million things to worry about in life that are more important than shortening the life of your engine by 2 seconds each drive...

[Formerly Steve Wilkinson]

Part of the problem is that some people--such as one of the posters on this thread--have mistakenly come to assume that air-cooled 911s are just another "car" and can be used like a Civic or an Explorer, as ordinary daily drivers. Not that Porsche ever did anything to disabuse us of this notion, but it's not true.

(Let's not get into a repeat of the recent "Can a 911 be a daily driver?" thread, because it can...assuming you have the right kind of daily drive.)

Not to say that 911s are high-strung Italian cars, but they are a bit out of the ordinary in a variety of ways. No you don't have to drain the oil and heat it on a stove as though it were a Type 35 Bugatti, and you don't have to warm it and then change to colder plugs like a W196 GP car, but nor can you jump in, drive 10 miles to the office in bumper-to-bumper traffic and then do the reverse day after day. (Well, you can, but you own the wrong car for the job.)

[mca]

Am I the only one that pushes their car out of the garage in order to wash it?

I admit that I worry too much about this kind of stuff. Often it detracts from my enjoyment of owning the car ... I am slowly improving though ... I'd hate to look back one day and regret that I let the car sit so much b/c I was worried about getting her up to operating temps on every drive.

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by Formerly Steve Wilkinson

"Porsches are not especially susceptible to this."

Actually, they are, because their cooling medium is for the most part oil, and 911s carry three gallons of it. Our Volvo V50 brings its few quarts of coolant up to operating temperature in about five minutes of gentle driving even in winter temps, and our Boxster takes only a minute or two longer.

I think ring blowby and moisture contamination should be roughly the same quantity in all the cars you mention. In the Volvo they are concentrated in one gallon of oil. In the 911 they are distributed through 3 gallons of oil. Seems the contaminants should be less damaging to a 911 because they are less concentrated. But it's an insignificant point. The engine should be warmed up now and then anyway.
My 356s get their oil changed twice year no matter the mileage because they only hold 3 quarts of oil and they live in an environment with frequent changes in temperature and humidity - ie. lots of water condensation.

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by mca

Am I the only one that pushes their car out of the garage in order to wash it?

Nope! Did it Sunday. 3X.

[mickey356]

wdfifteen,
That is a mighty fine collection you have there.

I guess this thread has taken a different turn and I hope I'm not taking it further from the original posters inquiry by asking these questions. I kinda think they fall under the same umbrella of "normal operating temperature".
Boiling off the contaminents and moisture thing makes sense to me so I now understand the importance of getting it to temp.
I was just out driving around (apprx 25 mls). I kept the rpm in the 3000-3800 range most of the time. It's rainy and lows 50's outside. The temp gauge never got above 170F and I was really trying. Should I try a different weight oil for the winter? Wouldn't that help in getting the oil to operating temp easier?
I'm not obsessive about this or anything. I just figure it's not that big of a deal to run a different weight if it would help. Aferall, it'll be in there for 3-4 months so I'll get my moneys worth out of it.
My engine has 160K on it without a rebuild yet so no matter what, at some point in the next 2 years it'll be getting rebuilt or replaced. That said I'd still like to do whats best for it.

[butzi73]

This has turned out to be a better discussion then I had originally imagined. Lot's of good info and points.

I do drive my 35+ year old car every day. It is my daily driver and I love it for that duty (as well as track duty). I know that I am the exception here but I decided to sacrifice convenience to be able to own this dream car, and it's been working out for me for a number of years now. Stephan, it may be the wrong car for the job, I won't deny that, but I'm going with it none the less and making it work as best I can. Of course I want the car to last as long as possible and therefore this concern about temps. I do like naparsei's attitude - it's not the worst thing in the world and I really shouldn't worry too much about it.

Most days I won't be able to get it up to temp if that really is 180+. At least twice a week I will take the long way home and get things cooked off in there. Changing the oil more often is a good tip. Hopefully that's good enough to make my engine last for many more years. I do know now to look at the 180 mark as the target temp.

[DanielDudley]

Every once in a while a guy will write in to Excellence because he ''lost'' more than a quart of oil while driving on the freeway for 100 miles.

He didn't lose any oil. What he did was boil off water and gasolene. I would want to boil it off once a week at least. But then, I need very little excuse...

Yeah, they are just cars. Really nothing but a six cylinder Volkswagon with a TEN THOUSAND DOLLAR ENGINE. (Don't worry, I'm just shouting for emphasis.)

I often recomend Peter Zimmermans book, ''The used 911 Story''. I believe that Pete thinks that warming up the engine by letting it idle in the drive can contribute to head stud failure. A great read.

I personally try not to let the car sit to long idling when cold. 30 seconds and I drive. I don't really worry about taking up to operating temperature everytime I drive, but I never use more than 1/4 throttle until I see temp, and I never use more than half throttle until hot. If I am going to park it for more than a few days, I will be sure to get it hot, and drive it hot for at least 30 minutes, to let it cook.

But that's just me. I think it is a lot like ZDDP in the oil. It is a personal choice, but those of us who have needed to replace cams are probably more apt to bow to the advice of the experts. I don't go crazy about taking care of my engine. I do however take care of my engine.

What I would suggest to the OP is that you get to know your car and it's engine. Have standards that you set around how you think you should treat it, and then adhere to those standards. If it seems like the guys around here are too serious, it is just because they care.

Your car really is a tough little bugger. Give it the slightest sympathy and consideration and it will reward you immensely.

[mkossler]

I would be flabbergasted (I just love that word) if an entire quart needed to be boiled off. That seems like some very serious contamination. Not saying it's impossible or anything, but I have no recollection of hearing about this with dry-sump fed engines. Wow.

I started using Mobil 1 synthetic this year, just prior to a track session. I trust the guy who worked on the car implicitly, but I must say that since that change whenever I track the car it is a little over the second temp mark (120 C) when I get off the track. This is with a one-lap (2.02 mile) cool down. It also runs at about 210 when it used to run at 190 in "normal" driving.

I can't believe that a Porsche shop would make such a rookie mistake, but I haven't heard of synthetics making a car run hotter. I'm almost afraid to check the oil lines.

Has anyone ever seen a difference in running temps after going synthetic? And yes, I'm aware of the ZDDP controversy and possible accelerated wear.

[Forza]

Regarding my approach to the issues raised, I defer to my '83 Owner's Manual:


From "Starting Hints" (p. 10):

"Don't heat up the engine in idling. Start at once, but avoid high speeds or full throttle befre the engine has reached its normal operating temperature."


Yes, Peter Zimmerman also advocates this start-up procedure (relating to reducing the liklihood of head stud breakage), but all he is really doing is reinforcing Porsche's obvious dicate on this matter. Idlers beware!



And from "Oil Temperature/Pressure Gauge" (p. 26):

"Oil temperature has an influence on the service life of the engine. After starting the engine, drive at moderate speeds until the oil temperature gauge needle has reached the end of the white field. When the needle has blimed [sic] to the first line of the scale, the engine has reached operating temperature (194F/90C)."



Finally, from "Maintenance and Emergency Service" (p. 54):

"The condition of oil, and of wear and tear items depends greatly on the amount of driving and driving habits. Therefore, oil and wear and tear items should be checked more frequently and possibly changed at shorter intervals."



In short, drive the car as you please ... just remain vigilant and be willing to spend more time and money to keep everything in working order if you disobey Scripture.

[mkossler]

Damn, that had to be a pain in the ass to type in manually!

[Forza]

Originally Posted by mkossler

Damn, that had to be a pain in the ass to type in manually!

Agreed, but it's snowy outside and I had to do something 911-related today. Let's just say I got my keyboard up to operating temperature....

[911pcars]

Originally Posted by DanielDudley

Every once in a while a guy will write in to Excellence because he ''lost'' more than a quart of oil while driving on the freeway for 100 miles.

He didn't lose any oil. What he did was boil off water and gasolene. I would want to boil it off once a week at least. But then, I need very little excuse...

Well, he probably did lose a qt., but not through water and gasoline unless he had a qt of the that extra stuff in the sump to begin with. I suppose that's possible through repeated engine operation without warm ups. The owner will probably have other engine issues if he had that much contamination in the oil system.

Oil is typicaly lost through external and internal leakage. External is obvious. Internal is via burning excess oil via loose valve guides and worn piston rings.

Sherwood

[mkossler]

Damn, that had to be a pain in the ass to type in manually!
Agreed, but it's snowy outside and I had to do something 911-related today. Let's just say I got my keyboard up to operating temperature....

Just to rub things in a bit, I'm sitting at the outdoor bar out back in the lanai. Watching the NFL Red Zone Channel, just dropped below 70 degrees now that the sun's been gone a while. Getting a little chilly.

I was stationed at Lowrey in Denver back in 81. Saw George Thorogood, Heart, and the Stones in Boulder in 81 - what a show! I absolutely love Colorado - ever notice that John Denver sang that West Virginia was "almost heaven" but he chose Aspen to live?

[canamfan]

Well, hmm, I'm, ahh, "an idler"! There I admit it! I never intended to hurt anyone (or anything), but....it's always worked for me, I'm passed denial now and I'm going to move forward (very slowly). I'ts just that I am one of those who can't bring themselves to push the throttle when the needle is below the 1st white hash mark. Am I so bad?

[Forza]

Originally Posted by canamfan

Well, hmm, I'm, ahh, "an idler"! There I admit it! I never intended to hurt anyone (or anything), but....it's always worked for me, I'm passed denial now and I'm going to move forward (very slowly). I'ts just that I am one of those who can't bring themselves to push the throttle when the needle is below the 1st white hash mark. Am I so bad?

Considering your stable consists of 5 different Porsches (judging by your signature), I think it's safe to say you've earned an exemption! Idle away, heretic!

[theiceman]

Getting back to the original question ...... let's keep in mind there are cars all over the world in Cold climates .. I live In Canada and from November to March the MAXIMUM my car will see is about 150 which is normal. taking the "long way round" will make no difference as the ambient is keeping things around that mark . It is fine to check your oil there . Otherwise we are proposing we don't check the oil level for 6 months !!! I don't think so . If you put it between the min and max at 150 , when the cooler is fully open it may look just above that, don't sweat the details ... BTW even at150 the stat is open , it is just not fully open ..... the next time you are at 150 and you get out of your car check your cooler lines up the side of the car , although not hot , they will be warm to the touch which means yo are getting some circulation.

Good luck ..

[Paulporsche]

canamfan,

No, you're not bad; you're just someone good doing bad things! Hey, they're your cars.

Now if you were someone who pronounces Porsche as a one syllable word...well...that's serious

[mickey356]

OK, I just got back from a round trip (40 miles each way) of highway driving.

Conditions:
50 degrees outside temp
80 mph @ 3500-4000 rpm
I have a ducktail and have the rear AC condensor removed

It took 4th gear at 4200 rpm for a short stretch to get the oil temp to reach "normal operating temperature". Other than that I was about a needles width shy of it the whole trip. I'll admit I was exceeding the speed limit by criminal amounts at times in 5th, but only twice and it still didn't go past the first white line.
How in gods name am I gonna get this car to normal operating temp when it gets cold? Should I restrict air intake on the rear deck lid? I can't really see how that would work but since switching to a ducktail it seems harder to get to temp. At first I thought it was a coincidence but now I'm starting to wonder if the condensor removal and the fitment gaps aren't increasing cool air flow to the engine compartment. I can't make sense of it.

[theiceman]

you obviously didn't read my post .. the increased airflow at high speeds kiled your temp . you would have been way beter off in second gear at 4200 RPM . the engine temp would have spiked and you would not have been breaking the law .....
BTW at your temps you are fine to check the oil .. there are about 8-9 litres in their anyway ,,not a big deal ..