Thanks Jaime.

Do you have a recommended brand or model of sensor. Have you tried this?

Here is a company that makes several that are good to 500 degrees.
http://www.omega.com/toc_asp/subsectionSC.asp?subsection=C06&book=Temperature

Thanks

Signing-up. Looking good Brad.

Brad, thank you for documenting your project. Please, as much as possible, do list the part numbers of what you are using, and if possible, photos of the parts as you did in the first post.

The trick part will be programming the ECU and doing the fuel maps.

I want to do the same with my '83 project. So following your thread closely.

Thanks again and best of luck!!

Ok. Received all my electrical components. I will create the wiring harness this weekend and Ill post my progress. Here are some of the parts received.

Here is the ECU. Its Black Aluminum MS-2, V3.57.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1258557391.jpg

Here is the Harness to connect the ECU to the Relay Board.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1258557402.jpg

Here are the Injector Connectors with Pigtails. (EV-1)

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1258557419.jpg

Here is the relay board.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1258557433.jpg

Here is the Innovate Wideband O2.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1258557444.jpg

Here is a wiring bundle with labeled wire in 12 foot lengths that all are color matched to the MS Relay/ECU wiring Harness.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1258557454.jpg


More to come!

Spent some time wiring the TPS/IAT and Injectors and creating the wiring harness.

Here are some shots... I need to wire the Wideband o2, the CHT (if used), tach wire, engine ground and 12v power... but those will be mostly done in the car...

Here is the TPS/IAT Harness...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1258688181.jpg

Here is a few shots of the middle stages of the Injector Wiring

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1258688224.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1258688241.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1258688253.jpg

Here are some shots of the closeup of the completed harness at the injectors...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1258688299.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1258688309.jpg

Here is a shot of the completed harnesses... Turned out pretty good. It will just plug right into Relay Board.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1258688331.jpg

Here is the relay Board. Mostly done.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1258688341.jpg

Next are the fuel lines...

Well... here is an update... I've been quiet the last couple weeks with the holidays...

I bought all the fuel lines and related hardware. I will post pics and specs. I am building my own lines using SS Line and AN Fittings.

I removed the distributor and sent it over to Barry Hershon to rebuild it, remove the vacuum advance and recurve it with mechanical advance.

I want to get it back, installed, car running, and the timing set with the CIS on the car because Megasquirt and PMO's are somewhat of an unknown with very few base maps out there and I do not want to have both fuel and ignition ripped apart at the same time. That makes chasing issues and problems all the more difficult...

More to come.

Will jump in on the idle issue. I also have problems getting good idle when cold. Not so much the idle but the idle speed. The idle speed will change on my car several hundred RPM from cold to warm. If I set it to idle good cold it will idle way to fast when warm. If I set the opposite then I have to feather it to keep it running cold. My idea is to install an idle solenoid that will bump the idle when cold then turn off when the car warms up. Holley makes a part and the following link show the part. Should be able to either just use a switch or could wire it to one of the general purpose outputs.

Holley 46-74 - Holley Universal Throttle Solenoids - Overview - SummitRacing.com

Why wouldn't you just use an MFI filter console with Bosch cold start enrichment valve? Pretty much plug and play.

Just install a factory hand throttle on the side of your parking brake. Simple and no programming involved. The issue with a PWM style idle solenoid is where do you connect it to the linkage such that it pushes evenly. The only place is the bell crank at cyl #3. The problem is building a bracket to mount it in that location.

Shawn, The software controls cold start enrichment. You simply tell the computer to deliver more fuel at low engine temps. This amount tapers off as the engine warms up. The problem is that there is no way to deliver extra air to help the engine speed. Early cars have a hand throttle. CIS and motronic both have air bypass systems.

The Megasquirt ECU has an input for both the IAT and CHT so i had intended to try to tweak the Maps to help at Idle with a head mounted Temp Sensor (CHT) as well as the IAT. I already have the IAT installed for the Air Temp. I had found several good CHT's. The good ones are about $100 (thermoresistor or RTD type). http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref=SRTD-1_SRTD-2&ttID=SRTD-1_SRTD-2&Nav= is a good one that you could cement on the head. http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref=PR-20&Nav=temc03 is one you could slide the probe though the fins (may actually work better). There is another pelican who has done this. I remember in my research seeing pics. It probably just doesnt work very well due to the Air issue that Jaime mentions or everyone would do it... so i may skip it and keep it simple and just go with the manual hand throttle. Still have not made a final decision on this part of the install...

Can you not make corrections with oil temp and air temp? That is all I use to get good idle cold and warm. My car idles about 100rpm lower when cold, but it does not take much time (1 min maybe) to be idling perfectly. I have not bothered to try to optimize it anymore as the car is heading to the track only in the spring.

Cheers

Jeff,

Do you have a pic of what you did with the breather port?

I was thinking the now unused Thermotime switch port but many thought that it wouldnt work effectively. have you effectively used it for this purpose?

Im in the same boat. Doesnt need to be perfect, just wanted alittle more precision than Air only.

Thanks

I can take a pic in a bit for you. I don't use that location, although I have a sensor in it. I did the two locations to test them as no one could tell me which one would give more accurate oil temp readings. They both read the same......

All you need is sensor that has a value that changes as your motor warms then you make changes based on the change in value. It could be oil or CHT that you use for warmup maps.

I had a hand throttle. Modified one of the heater levers as I no longer have heat. It worked OK but my connector broke and I just never got around to making another one.
As for idle speed differences mine has more of a 300 rpm difference. I however am horrible at tuning so the entire issue is likey that I just don't have things set right. As for a warm up sensor I just used the original head temp sensor.

Mine idles about 400 rpm lower than when warm. The hand throttle is a must. Especially since my car idles about 850-900.

Jeff is correct, there just needs to be some indication of a "warm" engine. It does not even have to be very accurate. Make sure you use a location that is tied to a large metal object. Mounting on a cooling fin is not enough. Also choose a location that is free from air currents that will prematurely cool the surface compared to the sub-surface temperature readings.

I wish I had the CHT sensor mount machined into my SC heads. That would be the best indication but not absolute.

As far as setting warm-up maps this is easy but will require a fairly well tuned motor. You just start the car when cold and look at the engine temperature vs AFR. Simply let the car idle for warm up and adjust the fuel trim to get about a 12.8 AFR or whatever your personal mixture target is. You might also need to adjust the after-start enrichment to get a bit more gas for those cold starts. Think of this as the electronic equivalent of pumping the gas pedal with carbs for initial start.

Ok,

I am not familiar with Megasquirt, I use a different system. The "temp" reading when cold is not important as long as it is considered "X" value. The temp reading when at "operating temp" is the same as long as it is "Y" value. You should be able to change maps starting at X and ending at Y with many steps in between in which you can tweak fuel and advance if you chose......

Cheers

Here is the pic of the breather cover sensor. Like I said earlier, I only mounted this one to compare it with the factory gauge and the sensor in the timing cover. All read the same give or take a few degrees. No one was able to provide any conlclusive info as to the best place to mount the sensor so I mounted them in both places to put the issue to bed. So depending on one's situation, they can rest assured that both locations will work fine.

Here is a pic of the sensor that I took 10 mins ago. It is a standard GM style oil temp sensor. Please pay no attention to the dirt in the pic, I had just finished cutting out the the seat base and firewall area of the car and had not blown the debris away! :)

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1260404948.jpg


The throttle return spring and throttle linkage in the corner of the pic is the custom stuff I fabbed up for my Jenvey ITB's.

Cheers

Any plans to soldier the electrical connections?
Great thread, thanks for sharing.

Proper crimp connectors and shring wrap. Solder can have a tendencey to crack under vibration....

Cheers

there are three wires that are soldered to the relay board... the rest are proper crimps and shrink tubing and the wrapped in the wire loom shown.

Thanks for the great pic. Ill probably use the thermotime port as a start and see what happens. Alot of speculation as to why it wont work, but wont really know unless i put a Oil/Coolant Temp Switch in the port and see... It was after all the place where they put the temp switch for the CIS (If its a terrible place for a temp switch, why would Porsche put it there?)...

Update... I have been stalled on the PMO project for about a month while getting through the holidays and while I had my distributor rebuilt and recurved by Barry Hershon. The vacuum can was deleted and I now have full mechanical advance.

I did not want to rip out my CIS while the distributor was also out of the car. I wanted to set the timing and having it running before ripping out the fuel system.

Distributor is back in the car. I have 5 degrees btdc at idle and 30 at 3000 rpm. I have full advance at 3000 rpm.

Wow... I understand emission controls but that made a world of difference. The throttle response is much better with the switch to mechanical advance and full advance at 3000 rpms. no detonation issues. If I didnt have $4,000 worth of EFI parts on my workbench Id be tempted to run it just the way it is for awhile.

I plan to remove my CIS next weekend...

Cis off
 

Did a partial drop. Took about 3 hours to get entire CIS system off the car. Here are some pics.. Will clean up the wiring and engine shroud and post some more pics...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1263168482.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1263168573.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1263168588.jpg

:D

Love the project, best of luck! I did a TEC long ago with ITB's and PMO manifolds on a race 3.0 and it was a challenge. Things have come a _long_ way these days and the O2 sensor tech alone looks so much better.

progress... Its clean...
 

Well spent the last few days cleaning... Removing the old sound pad... get ready to create a new wiring harness which will also involve removing all the old CIS wiring...

Next up is working on the wiring harness, removing the studs so longer studs can be fitted and getting rid of the remaining vacuum lines.

Cruise Control is gone now as well.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1263666862.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1263666879.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1263666892.jpg

Kinda off subject but I noticed you removed the sound pad. Do you plan to replace it? I'm debating on whether to go without and/or put something on the parcel shelf to block some heat/noise. If I go without, I will remove the tabs. What are your thoughts?

I've been watching this thread for awhile now... hurry up already! :)

Yes. Bought a lightweight one from out host.

Its the PEL-APBZ-ESPU -- Double-Reinforced Foil-Backed Engine Compartment Sound Mat/Pad, perimeter binding in BLACK, 911 (1969-89)...

Only weighs three pounds...

I completed the engine wiring harness. All stray wires are gone. Relocated the coil. Really cleans things up.

There are two stray red wires you see.. those are the switched power and battery power for the MSD. Need the same two for my EFI relay board so just need to figure out what Im doing on that....

I have a new green wire for the distributor that Barry Hershon created for me. This will plug directly into the MSD green and purple.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1263737403.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1263737417.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1263737429.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1263738026.jpg

I have three sensors that all relate to Temp and Warm up. Would you remove and plug them? What would you plug them with? or Just leave them. The most obvious is the one on top the breather. The other two are one on each side down on the chain covers. I have bought a complete 70's style hand throttle, so not sure I will need the CHT/Coolant Temp. If I do that will go in the breather spot...

Also, I need to figure out what I am doing with the fuel lines. My first approach is to get get a male fitting in the right size and style and create my own hose using the same SS line im using for the rest of it... But that then brings up the issue for fuel filters. I do have enough room next to the MSD to just return the stock accumilator setup, but I prefer not to unless there is a reason to do so.

Thoughts?

Made some progress today... Got the Sound Pad installed. Used a 5 minute two part gel epoxy. Good to 200 degrees. Worked great.

Also made my brackets out of aluminum. How does the placement look? They arent attached yet. I need to think about ECU placement.

Also soldered the three main lines to the relay board.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1263771947.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1263771961.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1263771971.jpg

:D

ECU Placement...

Here is my idea... There is just enough room in between the rear shelf and firewall (where speakers are) to slip my ECU out of site and close to the engine bay. I am not too worried about heat since I dont leave it sit out in the sun, and it cant be any hotter than under the seat if I parked in a garage.. If heat were a concern (although its a pretty low powered ECU) Id just replace my rear speakers with grills whice would let any hot air out... I have owned the car for 3 years and have never turned on the radio...

Thoughts?

Where'd did you get that vacuum manifold? It looks nice. I am in the middle of a rebuild with Hargett ITBs onto an '82 SC becoming a 3.3SS. Not posting much on it as I told Mark I'd work out any kinks with him (not in public) as it is one the first ones. So far it's going smoothly. :-)

Pmo.

Ok. I have made some progress. In fact Hardware is just about all in. I was looking for a solution to my fuel lines...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/521939-fuel-line-help.html

I now have the solution.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1264603497.jpg

I have a new fuel filter ordered, vacuum hose ordered and should be able to get the remaining hardware installed this weekend. I will post some pics.

As slow as I have been, the hard work (tuning) is just getting started.

Thanks

progress report
 

Well made significant progress...

Here are some pics.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1264979862.jpg

Very clean wiring fuse area. I need three wires connected to switched power (ECU, MSD, Innovate Wideband 02). Rather than splice multiple wires... Notice the 40 amp breaker on the fuse/relay board.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1264979889.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1264979901.jpg

Kept the Fuel Filter in the stock location.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1264979926.jpg

To Do...

1. Create and install one additional Fuel Line to Supply side of filter to Fuel Rail.
2. Use AN fitting to attached fuel filter to stock SC supply line.
3. Install an 18 in MSD Coil Wire.
4. Install ECU and route Cable and Vacuum Line.
5. Verify the Tach wire install with Megasquirt. Right now its on the - side of the coil, but I think it needs to move to the tach wire of the MSD.
6. Have my helper depress gas pedal to I can make sure linkage travel is correct.
7. Come up with some way of attaching a spring to throttle... i had removed the original plate... so not sure. We'll see.
8. Finalize what to do with the breather hoses.

About 3/4 day of work and she will be ready to run. :)

One additional Pic...

Had to modify the vacuum manifold with an aluminum plate so it would clear the breather hose. Wire Harnesses turned out ok. Engine has very little clutter...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1264980546.jpg

Created the additional Fuel Line. (#1 below)

Wired ECU tach wire to the MSD Tach Controller. (#5 below). Further cleaned up wiring at the coil.

MSD Coil Wire (#3) and the AN fitting (#2) come from Summit Racing today...

Progress continues.

Brad, great job. On the partial engine drop, remove oil line, remove trans and engine mounts and lower it real slow? Any pitfalls. Thanks in advance. Steve PS I did a search for partial engine drop and only your project came up.

Thanks.

No... Just the engine mounts... Lowered slowly... Just follow the article. Very easy...

Here is the Pelican Tech Article on it...

Pelican Technical Article: Partial 911 Engine Drop