Final Coil/Wiring/MSD Pic

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Close up of Fuel Filter setup...

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ECU mounting
 

Ok... Here is what I am thinking... Rear Shelf. There is enough room for speaker clearance to sit the ECU in. Have all the sound/heat pad...

Will I have any issues?

Here is placement.. in between two speakers...

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I am no electronics expert, but I would be worried about two things in that location. First is the lack of air flow. Since it is electronic, it will heat up. Second is that the rear window will allow a lot of direct sunlight to hit the parcel shelf and again more heat build up.

I was abit concerned as well. I had planned on installing speaker grills (without the speakers) to allow heat to escape since I dont use the radio...

I will look at other options. Issue with under the pass seat is that the cable from the relay board to the ECU isnt long enough and i really didnt want to reinvent the wheel...

Brad. I am watching this thread with great interest. I think an EFI conversion may be in my future as well and you seem to be doing this right!

Again, I am no expert on this but even with just speaker grills to allow air flow I would be worried. I lived in Ft. Worth for 10 years and I know 1.) how hot the Texas sun is and 2.) heat is the enemy of all things electronic. Intuitively, I would think that the parcel shelf would be hotter than even the engine compartment.

Is there a cable extension you can get from the ECU vendor?

Good luck!

Agree. I have a call into them. They sell 12 foot cables with the DB37 connector on one end. Would just need to add a DB37 connector to the other end and I would have a 12 foot Relay Cable instead of a 6 foot cable. Probably the best option...

The MS unit does not generate much heat unless you are driving ignition coils directly. I would probably not install on the rear deck due to the heat from the sunlight. Another consideration is the access to the serial outport. You will need easy access to the port for tuning and adjustments. Also, The LED visual indicators are useful for trouble shooting and power verification.

A longer cable is your best option. The hard part is the installation. The DB37 is large and will not fit through a hole. You will need to solder and shrink-wrap the connector in place after running wires from your ECU location.

It is pretty simple to run through the tunnel and exit under the seat for ECU location.

I don't have rear seats and mounted mine on the vertical segment of the rear deck on top of RS style carpet. A hidden installation would mount under the seat, passenger floorboard or under the dash by the glove-box.

Why not relocate the relay kit to under the seat also and run a longer harness to the motor from the relay kit?

That is not a bad option and wouldnt require too much extra work... I have ordered a 12 foot cable, so I think that placement of relay board is ok for now. I have heard that the relay board is the weak link... so if it is I can always remove the D37 end and use it to wire the components directly...

Cable has been ordered. Thanks for the insight Jaime.

If the relay board is the weak link then it would make sense to get it out of the heat of the engine comp. and into a more friendly environment like under the seat I mean I dont leave my car out in the direct sun very often and there must of been a reason that the factory put all the engine electronics in that spot.

My understanding is that the board is great and designed for the engine bay... however the connections tend to self losen, and for that reason while it adds ease of setup it also can be the weak link. ive experienced some wires losening on their own. basically any wire that is larger than 16 guage... so we will see... i do like having the fuses and relays on a board...

Progress Report
 

I made some additional progress.

1. I powered up the fuel pump... fixed one leak and set the pressure to 42 psi.
2. I had my helper assist and i have the fuel linkage set up to floored in the car = Butterflies wide open on all 6 cyl.
3. Put the seat/shelf/speakers back together. I will not put the ECU there for a few reasons.
4. Removed the pass seat, removed the K-Jet computer and the entire CIS / O2 wiring harness.
5. Installed the new ECU use two of the three existing mounting points. Keeps it 1 inch off the floor. Still no higher than seat.
6. Ran the vacuum line, drilled hole, installed a grommet. Used 5/32 goodyear vacuum hose.
7. Installed the Wideback O2. Getting a gromet that fit was the hard part. Bought 4, 1 worked.
8. Drilled 2 small holes in each air cover base and installed return throttle springs.

To Do:

1. Install the ECU to Relay Board Cable.
2. Install manual hand throttle from 72 911 i purchased from Jim WIlliams.
3. Load MSQ file from Jaime set up for stock 3.0/SSI's as a starting point.
4. Install new Distributor pick-up wire made by Barry Hershon.

Then we'll be ready to turn the key and see if she runs! Very Close. Probably next weekend since they have to make the cable.

Cheers!

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One other note... If you completely remove the CIS/K Jet wiring harness there is a hole with a grommet already there for you right above the tunnel and below the middle of the rear seat.. No need to reinvent the wheel and drill holes in the tunnel area. Wires just go where the current K Jet harness went. I have found NO reason to keep that harness and have removed it. I am hoping there was nothing in there that i needed.. but I couldn't find any...

Glad to see a project come together. Looks like you are making great progress and a clean intall. Looking forward to the final setup pics.

Update....

Wiring is complete.
Adjust Fuel pressure to 43.5.
Initial Configuration files installed on the ECU.. and it started and idled smooth... was able to adjust the ITB's for an initial baseline with a Sychrometer.

Some issues to work out...

1. It idle's rich. VERY rich. I will be making some adjustments this coming week.
2. The main / switched power is incorrect. Once the car is running, the key does not shut off the engine. I think my power at the rear fuse box needs to be tested and adjusted. It may be the two pole breaker for switched power that is my problem.
3. Some fine tuning with the Synchometer on the ITB Balance.
4. still need to get the hand throttle installed. Its 70 degrees here in Houston this weekend, so no really issues with cold start.
5. Once I get idle taken care of, I will move to driving tuning.

Special to Jaime Novak. He has given me the confidence to get to the next step. Thanks!

Ill take some final pics and get them posted and provide a tuning update next week!

Thanks

There were two guys in the UK doing ITB on the impactbumpers forum several months back. I think one was Mr Perkles. I recall one of them had exactly the same issue with the key not turning off the engine once started. It may be worth looking at that thread or perhaps Mr Perkles will chime in? I would love to do ITB's on my SC but the amount of work and $'s is daunting. In the meantime I am living vicariously through your thread. Keep up the good work!

I verified this AM that I have full time 12V when needed and 12V only when in Run/Crank Position when needed. Both at fuse area and on relay board.
So my EFI is overriding the ignition switch? Any thoughts?
After I start the vehicle, I get power at both "on" all the time and "switched" as expected.
When I turn off the ignition, I get 11 volts at switched power. Enough to run the ECU. For some reason the act of turning on the car wrecks havoc on the switched power.
Merely turning the key into the Run position, does NOT do this.
Thoughts?

I'm not sure about your ECU setup but you should have power (don't worry about voltage readings) to the coil when the key is on and none when it is turned off. If your ignition (coil) gets power from the ECU via a relay then check the relay and wiring to the relay. I'm sure it is something very simple.

Brad I wired direct from the battery to relays for the ecu and fuel pump,my ignition key only turns the starter motor now,the ecu primes the pump for 10secs on start up via the ecu,wasnt realy a problem just didnt expect it to work this way.

I experienced a similar electrical problem with this ITB upgrade. Although the engine starts up easily, it won’t stop. There are many Pelican threads on this subject, with different solutions. In my case, when I turned off the ignition, the “BATT” warning light illuminates and the TECgt and its associated fuel relay remained powered. Seems the alternator was back-feeding through the “BATT” warning light.

The Bentley manual shows a diode in the circuit to prevent this backflow. The Haynes wiring diagram states that in 1984, only the Turbo model has the diode. I searched for it, but couldn’t find it.

In any case, I installed a #1N5820 diode as shown below, now the engine shuts off without any hesitation. If you’ve experienced a problem similar to mine, this may be your solution.

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Yes. I saw that in your post. In mine, the charge light is not on.

Is there a way to test?

Remove the charge light when the engine is running. If the engine dies, you need a diode.

Great Trog. Ill check that and report back. Thanks.

Its not backflow. Disconnecting the light in the guage had no impact. Other ideas?

I'm going to throw my .02 in here. I have an MS3 running extra. I had some initial problems and it was a simple wiring error. I'm sure that with JN's help you have covered all of this but just make for certain all the relays and grounds are right. Maybe show a diagram of your setup to help us help you.

A schematic would be helpful.

Why don't you just wire and switch, maybe hidden for theft protection, on the main power to your ECU. Hit the switch, and the motor will stop, right now. I assume your ECU triggers your fuel pump relay as well so this will take care of it. Plus, you have some extra built in theft protection.....

Knowing I was not going to use my key to start my car, I have a master toggle for ECU and a second toggle that can take just the fuel pump out of play (for fiddling with the ECU when the engine is not running) and a push button starter.

Cheers

Depends on how your relays are wired and if you are switching the ground or the power. Some relays are self holding. Meaning that if you switch the power to pull in coil for the relay then when it turns on it holds itself in the on position even after the power to pullin coil is switched off. This is not the main power to the relay but the pullin line. If you switch the ground when you turn off the switch the relay has no choice but to release. I don't recall the numbers on the relay now but just make sure you are breaking the ground and not trying to break the line to the pull in coil.

Mystery Solved... I think
 

Ok. Now throughout this "run on" fiasco... i noticed that after i turned the key on to run the fuel pump, and then off (without running car) that my fuel pump would run-on a few seconds. I also had a scenario where the fuel pump would not shut off even though wired through the relay board and ECU to shut off if the car didnt start. The switched wire I was using was the switched fuel pump wire that tied into the CIS over at the wiring harness.. so i suspected something in the fuel power circuit. I also tested all the switched power connections (fused fan /defog in engine bay, test wire at o2 control module) and all of them had the continued but reduced power (about 11 volts) with the ignition shut off. Also for the car to keep running, I needed power at ECU, Spark (MSD), and Fuel. Highly unlikely that everything in the car i tested was bleeding through my relayboard/ECU. This would be especially true of power to the fuel pump since it would need to go through the relay to get power to the fuel pump. It was also unlikely it was relay wiring, mis-wiring, fuse-wiring, because everything ran through a prefabricated relay board that was pretty idiot proof. I swaped out the red fuel pump relay with a plain old black one and my problem is solved. Dont ask me how I thought to check that except that I knew my electrical issue seemed to be in the fuel power circuit. Ill order a new red one... thanks for the help problem solving. you guys are great!

If I remember correctly one color is the self hold type and the other is not. It is a simple of matter of a small loop-back wire inside the relay. It is still a good idea to switch the ground side of the relay insead of the power side.

I think switching the power vs ground is a function of the relay board. It has 4 fuses, 3 relays all built into the prefab'd board. All you do is solder on ground, power, and switched power and screw in the wires to the sensors and injectors and youre done. not sure you could or need to do your own thing on this setup. i dont have a switch on power or ground. its all in the board...

relay board
 

If that is the case it must get its 12V+ from a single source right? Put a switch, of correct amperage, in that circuit.....

Cheers

I understand that you are using the relay board but you also must still an original fuel pump relay. The old round type as you indicated that is what you changed to make the system work. Here is what I see as happening I will use points 30, 86, 87 that relate to the connections on the relay. (30) is the main power to the relay. The relay board for the ECU would put power to the pull in coil to the fuel pump (86) when the car started. This would apply power to (87) the output of the relay to the fuel pump. Because the relay was self hold as soon as it made contact an internal wire then connected (86) back to (30) because (30) always had power this held the coil in even when the outside power to (86) was removed. The reason the voltage was lower was because the ECU was only seeing the power that could go through the small wire on the relay From (30) to (87) back through the relay and small wire to (86). In this case I assume (86) to be the wire from the CIS control box that would have originally controlled the fuel pump.
There are other placed to get switched power. But you have to keep in mind the switch has several outputs. One has power at switch position 1 & 2 but not during crank. One has power at position 1 & 2 plus crank. And one has power at only position 2 & crank. Then of course the yellow one only has power during crank. The line you really want to find to feed the ECU is the one that provides power only at position 2 and crank. Get this power right after the switch not from some line that comes from someplace that happens to have power. You don't know where that power has been :)
I would move the power connection from where you have it and connect directly to the switch.

Thanks for the explanation. That makes sense. So I probably do not have a bad relay, I just have it all wired together which allows the ECU to draw power through the hold wire... The standard black relay doesnt have the small black hold wire so its why it worked.

Question, Why cant I just use the black round relay without the internal wire and call it a day? Is there a reason you wouldnt want all these wired together? I have them on a circuit breaker so not worried about the current load.

I had originally used the old CIS fuel pump power/cut-off because its where TBitz tapped in for his kit as well, so I figured I wouldnt reinvent the wheel. At this point I have the Hot Switched Power, the MSD, the ECU and the fuel pump relay wire all together. This is obviously not going to be a long term solution if I want to keep stock wiring and have my key work.

i was reluctant to tap directly into the ignition switch. Is that is what you are proposing? what about from the front fuse panel? would that be better?
In looking at the bentley it appears that 15 off the ignition (red/black) is hot at the right time. It goes to Fuse 12 and runs the Fresh Air Blower and Rear Window Defogger Switch. Would this be an ok wire to tap into? Could I also tap into the fuel circuit power pre-relay at the fuse panel (Fuse 11)? Appears that Fuse 11 and 12 both share power from the Red/Black (15). Fuse 16 and 22 also have the right power, however 12, 16, 22 are all pulling power from Fuse 11 entry wire.

Thanks in advance for all the advice.

Brad

I know this seems like a weird situation, but I decided to clean the contacts for the red relay. Sprayed it with electrical contact cleaner, pluged in the red relay... and it works fine... with the red relay... not sure that I need to go about rewiring all of this now...

Brad, The fuel pump run-on should last 3 seconds. This is the typical prime pulse for MS systems. It sounds like your relay had some trouble releasing the contact. I see no reason to change the wiring now that the relay board is working properly.

Now GO TUNE THE CAR! :) Its a nice day for a drive here in Austin.

Thanks Jaime.

Think I am still off on idle. Are poeple really getting AFR's in the 13.5-14.5 range at idle? Couldnt initially get AFR past 10.5... very rich... Realized i had synchronization problems. I closed each screw, then opened each screw on the base of the throat two turns, then synch'd each bank to the others on the bank and synch'd the two banks together at 900 RPM's. AFR went up to 11.4-11.6. Im getting about 4 on each throat with the synchometer. sound right?

Tomorrow Ill take it to 3k RPM and make sure my linkage is right. I did it early and i got some serious hestitation at accel... youre right weather is perfect. 63 degrees and sunny.

My idle AFR is around 13.2 this summer I want to get it to 14. But I am not using ITB's.