This VIN Does not read right

[RichHawk]

I am sometimes a bit thick, but if enough details present themselves my spidey senses can start tingling...

I'm looking at buying a basket case 911, that has been sitting for years, never titled in the current owners name, and he lost the title years and years ago. I was trying to figure out what engine was in it.
So I checked for an Engine Serial number. Nope, not there. It's a CIS injected motor that looks period correct.

So I thought I check the VIN to at least see what it could tell me. Hmmm it doesn't follow the pattern from
Porsche 911 Fahrzeugidentifikation

Hmm and the ID plate says 911E, but I don't know of any "E" in 1974..
and the plate is mangled a bit on the right, rivet holes don't line up.

Should I start worrying about this car having been stolen long ago?

A mystery for sure.

Sluths: please help comfirm or deny the validity of the following points:

1) was there any 911E in 1974?
2) Is this VIN legit? or faked? (there is a military background with this car, maybe it's just ROW) VIN 9110210464
3) Does this engine look like someone intentionally removed the engine serial number?

Thanks,
Richard

[ossiblue]

My opinion:

The VIN is for a 1970E Targa. There were no E cars in model year 74. The ID plate looks professionally stamped, but not by the factory. The plate rivets are not factory. The whole fan support where the engine # should be looks to have been ground off.

Run far, far, away, and very, very fast.

[RichHawk]

I am sharing the run far away and fast opinion. But might change it if anyone else can chime in with a different one.

Can anyone post a detailed picture of an authentic ID plate and rivets around 1970 or 1974?

Thanks,
Richard

[tonythetarga]

If it is a 74 it is a short hood. You could check in the trunk near the smugglers box for a vin there as there are multiple locations for chassis stamps to concur the vin plate, which has obviously been reattached with an ordinary rivet gun.

[RichHawk]

I've never figured out the difference visually Short hood Vs long hood.

Here's the front of the car in question:
Short on long?
it's already been dressed to be something it's not, a Turbo wide body.

[Grady Clay]

I agree. These numbers do not pass my ‘smell test’. There appears to be tampering.


No matter how proper the numbers appear, they should be checked with NCIC to confirm that the car, engine, etc. are not listed as stolen. This is particularly true with ‘old race cars’ and cars not currently registered.

I would never spend a dime on buying, much less spending $10s of thousands in restoration without knowing for sure I have valid title and not some insurance company from decades ago.

The reason too many early 911 race cars don’t have valid title isn’t because someone was careless. The car was stolen and put in a system where title ownership wasn’t required. However many times the ownership has changes has only served to insulate the thief.

The ‘last man standing’ is the one with the car when the sheriff, state police, feds or export officials seize the car. The recourse ‘claw-back’ only goes so far. “Buyer beware” has never been more true.

Selling a 911 with complete and verifiable provenance is most important and very valuable. Worth the added cost IF you check the documentation.

Best,
Grady

[RichHawk]

Grady definitely knows this subject. Just talk with him for 20 minutes about it.

So let's presume stolen, How to verify or disprove the fishy VIN?
How do you check with the NCIC?
Where else to look for an actual VIN?

There wasn't an obvious VIN on the windshield of this car, but I don't know when that practice was started.

Richard

[djpateman]

You could buy it for parts, scrap the body and engine case though.
Can you check the production number under the right kneepad below the radio?

[ossiblue]

The "fishy" smell of this car reeks all the way to here, on the west coast. No VIN on the windshield pillar? Pillar VINs began at least as far back as 69. Other VIN locations? Others will post, but I'd bet those have been obliterated too. What seems most obvious is the missing piece of the fan support. The engine # is not simply ground away, the whole support arm is cut away! Look at the gouges on the fan housing!

How can you disprove the fishy VIN if you don't have one? The one shown is probably legit (for a 1970 E) that's why it was used. Is it worth your effort to find remnants of the original VIN and back track to see if the car is stolen? To what end? Do you need this headache?

edit: After seeing the photo, a bit of tempering. It could be an early Targa, "updated" to a short hood body with a front clip, etc. Then a new tag put on because the original was tossed with the old bulkhead. But I don't know about the "1974" on the tag. Could that be the date of the retagging? (I don't know what Baujahr means.) But that doesn't explain the butchering of the engine #. Just too many funny things do deal with, IMO.

[Grady Clay]

I think this is in ALL OUR interests.

Having security buying and selling 911s (and parts) is important.

First, drying up the market for stolen cars and stripped parts means we have more security owning our cars. If you and I (collectively WE) don’t demand the provenance of the cars we buy, the crooks will continue steeling from ‘Peter in SF and selling to Paul in NY’ at our expense.

If I were a pessimist, I would note:

Law enforcement only do ‘just enough’ to just justify their continued increasing budget.

Insurance companies give ‘lip service’ and just enough to keep rates above losses.

The auto industry just gets to sell more cars.

Owners of cars and insurance policies (and BTW citizens) get screwed.


If I were an optimist, I would note there has been an improvement in law enforcement (by public demand), insurance companies still give ‘lip service’ and manufactures now put VINs on parts (per legistration).


What to do?


We need a National System of State titles, registration and ownership documentation. There is none. Some states allow a ‘Bill of Sale’ on the back of an envelope as all the documentation required. This is outrageous. No wonder the crooks have an ‘easy ride’.

Look to the system of owning ‘real property’. Real estate can’t move states. Additionally there are clear-cut chain of ownership and, in turn, you can buy ‘title insurance’. There is no reason similar systems can’t be applied to automobiles within our country.

It is up to us to demand better laws, better enforcement and eliminate the disincentives in the various industries.

Sorry for the rant.

Best,
Grady

[Wil Ferch]

Even much more basic.....the company name shows up as Porsche KG.

Porsche KG was true up to 72. It was Porsche AG afterwards.

1974 would never be KG.....don't even have to go further.

[chrisg252]

If it were a genuine 1974 VIN plate, the top line would have , in raised lettering,
Dr. Ing.h.c.F.Porsche Ag Stuttgart- it would not have Hergesteller Porsche KG
And Baujahr literally means Build Year. The KG and a build year of 1974 are incompatible
The 1974 plates were rivetted on with one rivet centrally located on the left and right sides of the plate.

Chris

[djpateman]

Euro cars do not have the VIN # on the A pillar.
A proper 1970 VIN tag:

Since that appears to be a professionally made tag, I'd have to assume it was made for some European government agency to replace tags on vehicles. I have seen several tags put on by US states. So the info from the original tag was used to make the new tag. This could have been a theft recovery car with a new tag. This is not to say the car is or is not legit (somewhere).

[ossiblue]

Originally Posted by djpateman

Euro cars do not have the VIN # on the A pillar.
A proper 1970 VIN tag:

Since that appears to be a professionally made tag, I'd have to assume it was made for some European government agency to replace tags on vehicles. I have seen several tags put on by US states. So the info from the original tag was used to make the new tag. This could have been a theft recovery car with a new tag. This is not to say the car is or is not legit (somewhere).

There are possible legitmate reasons for the curious tag and digging them out may be possible but combining the oddities of the VIN with the obviously deliberate removal of the engine # is too much of a coincidence in my book.

[RichHawk]

Innocent until proven guilty.
Yes, we have two suspect data points.
1)The VIN tag that doesn't match our expectations
2)The Engine serial number that has been removed

These are enough to make me not buy this car. Period. Unless I get a written notarized document from the police that this car is not stolen, I'm not risking buying this car.

My earlier report of not being able to find a windshield mounted VIN number may not mean it was not there. I was looking for an obvious metal tag like the 1970 914 had right up against the inside of the windshield glass. But my 87 911 pillar mounted VIN tag is different, it's back further, making it less obvious. I didn't look there when casually inspecting the car.

I feel a moral obligation to research this car to the point of being 100% sure it's stolen, or not 100% sure. If I'm not 100%, I won't report it to the authorities.

I need two things more to confirm stolen in my mind.
1) I need to find all locations of VIN numbers for 1970 and 1974 911s. Please show pictures of where I can find these locations. I'll go look for and photograph all VIN locations on this car.
2) I need to run all VIN numbers I find on the car through some national database of stolen cars. Please suggest how I can find this.

Remember that the history of this car has it sitting for the last 20 years. So there is little registration history. But there was a new jersey license plate in the car, maybe that clue would be good for some history.

Richard

[twistoffat]

That Car is or was oh so stolen. See as suggested if the productions number is under the knee protector of if the Vin is under the carpet on the passenger side of the trunk.

[ossiblue]

Originally Posted by RichHawk

Innocent until proven guilty.
Yes, we have two suspect data points.
1)The VIN tag that doesn't match our expectations
2)The Engine serial number that has been removed

I feel a moral obligation to research this car to the point of being 100% sure it's stolen, or not 100% sure. If I'm not 100%, I won't report it to the authorities.

I need two things more to confirm stolen in my mind.
1) I need to find all locations of VIN numbers for 1970 and 1974 911s. Please show pictures of where I can find these locations. I'll go look for and photograph all VIN locations on this car.
2) I need to run all VIN numbers I find on the car through some national database of stolen cars. Please suggest how I can find this.

Remember that the history of this car has it sitting for the last 20 years. So there is little registration history. But there was a new jersey license plate in the car, maybe that clue would be good for some history.

Richard

Two things that may/will complicate your investigation. First, finding the real VIN for that chassis--that may the toughest part as you may need to disassemble some parts. If you find the locations have been tampered with, that is all you need to know, IMO.

Second, even if you find a VIN, likely the number will have been dropped from all state systems if the car has not been registered for twenty years. The best the Jersey plate will give is the last registration using the modified VIN. The only possible place to check would be the NCIC as mentioned by Grady (don't know the procedure, though.) That still leaves the engine with the obliterated fan support.

Seriously, in this case I'd modify your outlook to "Guilty until proved innocent" as there are enough red flags to warrant that change--you even said it would require a notarized document from the police for you to purchase the car.

Good luck, and I admire your moral drive on this issue. I hope you keep us updated, regardless of your success on a 100% determination.

[RichHawk]

The above VIN tag( the one with the 1970 VIN number and 1974 date) is the plate located in the front trunk, under the carpet on the passenger (right) inner fender.

I need someone to describe what the production number looks like, and Where this elusive "Knee pad" is.

Do I have to remove the knee pad to find the production number?
IS the red arrow pointing to the knee pad?

[ossiblue]

Yes, that has to be removed to see the production#. There should be another stamped VIN in the trunk, just in front of the lid to the smugglers box--at least on early cars and I think on the 74's as well.

[ossiblue]

Here's a picture (borrowed from Jim Williams for sale post), showing two locations for the VIN in a 74. You can see the plate on the far left of the picture, attached to the fender wall. The other location for a stamped VIN is in the small, black rectangular area just in front of the smugglers box.



If that's missing, let us know.