Question about 3.2 engines and valve guide problems

[JR911]

Hi guys, well I'm still Porsche-less but hope to maybe change that soon. I've looked at a 86 911 Targa. Here's the question--do all 3.2's have an early valve guide wear problem as noted in Pete Zimmermann's book, or is this only some do to bad service/etc?? Any other qwerks about that year? Your thoughts are most welcome! Thanks, J.R.

[addictionMS]

It is my understanding that all of them have the potential for the problem, mine did not have the guides replaced until 140Kmiles. If yo can get the valve covers off, it is easy to see if there is a problem, take a screwdriver and push the top of the valve sideways and if there is more than abot 1/2mm movement the guides are bad.

I have been told the problem is not really the guides, as much as the guide seals did not let enough oil into the guides, so the guides wore out early.

other data points, my buddy have a car with 90K+ miles and no issues, so I don't thinkit is a big problem. My car was smoking on deceleration after heavy aceleration. A small puff of smoke woud float past the drivers door, not cool at a set of lights.

Final note, if you are going to have the guides replaced, replace the rings while you are there, and you will be very happy with the result, I am now at 175K mlies no issues.

Jim

[APKhaos]

This 3.2 valve guide issue is fairly subjective. Turns out that the 3.2l is pretty close to bombproof, so the couple of weaknesses that showed up early became ledgendary. Valve guide wear was an issue. Like Jim, my 3.2l has 145,000 miles, and is just beginning to show symptoms which could be indicative of valve guide wear - slight puff of smoke on dead cold startup, and oil consumption up to 1qt/500 miles. Oil is cheap.

A good PPI should tell you more about compression, leakdown, and should include a look at valve stem free play if you ask for it. That way, you will know what you are buying. The 3.2l is a strong engine, with remarkable longevity.

[JDaniel]

Then on the other hand there seem to be plenty of cars out there suffering from premature valve guide wear. My car (an '87) with 59k miles is now ready for a top end. I had a PPI done at 45k, and the results were all good. No sign of valve guide wear. 14k later and I've got all the symptoms.
There are ways to look for current valve guide wear (ie: stem movement, smoking upon deceleration, fouled plug or plugs, and poor leakdown) but how do you know if there's going to be a problem in the near future? I guess it's just a crapshoot.

[masraum]

My understanding of the problem as explained by Bruce Anderson is that the problem is not 3.2L wide. Not all of them have it, but enough of them have had the problem to notice a difference between the 3.2L and the 3.0L SC's. It's still a small percentage of the cars that have or develop the problem. My '88 is at about 125K miles and is still going strong without ever being opened.

[don911]

My 87 has over 190K and is going strong. I think I'm due in the next couple of years but I'm waiting until I start fouling plugs.

That said, I know a person who bought an 88 with 6K miles on it and had to have the guides replaced. The car was never driven so that may have had something to do with it.

[Lucky]

My 86 had a rebuild (at the expense of Porsche) at 48k. It's now at 72k w/ no issues.

I can only repeat what I have heard... the elastomer guide seals used in some 3.2s (apparently orange in color) are to blame for the early guide failure.

As you will hear over and over again, get a PPI on whatever car you are considering. For a 3.2, just be sure to ask them to check the guides for wear and to tell you what color seals are on the guides. For any car with orange seals, even if it doesn't show any guide wear, you may want to factor a top-end rebuild into the purchase decision. If it is still a good buy and checks out in other areas, then don't hesitate. 3.2s are awesome engines (if you don't overrev 'em)!

-- Lucky

[Eric Coffey]

I think the key word to the subject is "premature" valve guide wear. I don't consider valve guide wear on a car with 150k miles to be premature. Although I am sure there are plenty of cars with higher mileage that don't need any valve work. Premature to me is a car with around 30k miles that needs new guides/seals. There have been a few reports of that, but nothing wide-spread. If the symptoms or problems don't show up after about 60k miles, they probably wont show up until way down the road, if at all. My current 911 is the 4th 911 (`85-`88) I've owned with over 100k miles. I have never (knocking on desk) had a problem with bad guides or seals on any of them.

Just make sure you get a good PPI by a competent tech/shop with plenty of 911 (not just "European") experience. Make sure to have them do a compression test (and leak-down if necessary), in addition to checking the valves. Also, drive the car! Make sure to start it both when cold, and then again after it's been up to temperature. look for things like smoke on start-up or acceleration, and loud valve noise.

-Eric

[Early_S_Man]

You need to be absolutely sure that the mechanic that does your PPI is a 911 mechanic, and not just another water-pumper jockey that claims to be a Porsche mechanic, but only tunes up or does a clutch on a 944 or 951 every three months!

Ask him if he has the valve spring removal tools to inspect the valve-stem seal with the engine in the car using compressed air?

Also at issue with 3.2 engines these days ... are broken Dilivar exhaust row head studs, just like on SCs! Be sure all 12 of them are checked!

[R22tech]

After reading through this thread I have a question: My 85 Targa has 44,xxx miles on it. It "smokes" at start up. Not all the time-but heavy on cold mornings. I always thought it was just because it was cold out. My household dryer smokes out the vent on a cold day! The last comp. test was done at 39,xxx miles and showed 195psi in all 6. My car uses about a quart of oil every 3,000 miles and runs great. It is a little "stumbly" when cold, though. Do you think I have valve guide issues? Also, I have had people check for smoke out the tailpipe while I'm driving, hard acceleration/decelleration-no smoke.


Oh, and the smoke is always white, like steam, if that means anything. I'll tell you what, for a professional mechanic, I sure am an idiot when it comes to automotive engines!

[Superman]

Relax my refrigeration mechanic friend. First, a quart every 3000 miles is canary poop. Second, smike from burning oil is blue. It's pretty light colored, but it is blue, compared to the white smoke of mixture richness that goes on for several minutes of running after startup. Startup oil smoke lasts about 2 seconds, and even if you have this occasional puff of oil smike on startup, it is pretty darned normal. Sounds like your car is in great shape.

[R22tech]

Superman, That's what I thought, but reading about all these problems on this board gets to me occasionally. Paranoia? You bet!

[83SC in PA]

Is a fouled plug an indicator of possible valve guide failure?

[Rick Lee]

Reading all this, I'm now getting curious about my car -- an '87 Carrera. It was actually built in Dec. of 1986. I've heard that some '87s had valve guide issues. Is it logical to think those issues would have been in the cars made earlier in that year (or in the previous year, yet still called 87s)? Mine has 76k miles on it. The leakdown at 72k miles showed nothing below 96%. It really smoked today on start-up, but it was in the low 30's outside. Normally it does not smoke or make any strange noises. Oil consumption is about 1 qt. per 1000 miles, but I have two leaks, one at the left lower cam cover and the other at the rear engine seal. So it's impossible to know the true oil consumption. Even with the leaks, I'm within specs. Now to my question: what is considered overrevving? I regularly take mine to 5000-6000 rpms once it's gotten real warm. I've always thought these engines were made for that kind of driving. Am I killing my valves?

[Rot 911]

Now everyone with a 84-89 Carrera is in a panic! Richard, as Eric stated earlier the keyword is "premature" Many if not most 911's will smoke occasionally on startup. I doubt that you have a valve guide problem as 1 qt every 1000 miles is way within specs for your car. And with 72K on the engine I suspect you have nothing to worry about.

[Lucky]

Richard,

Overrevving is anywhere into the red zone on the tach. Your excursions to 5 - 6k are well under redline, so no worries. Many people replace the chips in their DMEs on 3.2s, which often raises the ignition cutoff imposed by the computer -- not a safe thing given that connecting rod bolts on 3.2s are considered weak and prone to failure if the engine is revved too high (this being near or above 7k).

As many have stated above, 3.2s are very solid engines... just treat them right and they'll last nearly forever.

[Randy W]

The bad batch of original equipment valve guides were reportedly those put in by the factory in some of the the '87 and early '88 Carreras. The other year models are not affected as far as I know. John is right about the stock 9mm Carrera rod bolts - they are prone to stretching with resultant rod bearing failure if the rev limit is changed beyond 6700 rpm and used often. Lack of a radiator type cooler and/or cooling fan in the earlier models may exacerbate this problem. The earlier SCs have 10mm rod bolts that are stronger.

Randy Wells

[frankgoss]

Looking at 1987 3.2 with 90k. Doing PPI but Porsche dealer wants $1,000 to do all tests.
Mechanic in Daytona Beach said remove cam covers, drain oil and check exhaust studs.
If orange value guide seals could be bad. Can't do cold start up since seller is driving car.
What do you suggest?

[Jesse16]

Just another data point, my 87 just got a top end by me this past winter at 187K miles. The usual smoke on deceleration and more oil usage than I cared for. Otherwise ran fine and on opening the engine, looked great inside where it counts.
Of course 24 year old stuff like lots of carbon on piston heads and lots of build-up in the exhaust ports and misc. other old car items. Worn parts after 20 + years are to be absolutely expected.

[Jesse16]

Sorry Frank, I didn't see the "age" of this line of posts. I personally think $1000 is very high. Find an independent shop somewhere. Check with your local PCA chapter for list if unsure who is out there.