3.0 dyno day - a pleasant surprise

[haycait911]

took my newly rebuilt 3.0 in for a dyno run today. it's an '82 3.0 case with:

9.5:1 JE's
Dougherty cams with an extra-special- super-secret grind
ARP rod bolts
balanced bottom end and pistons
34mm intake ports
Webers with 34mm venturis
MSD
headers
Bursch

a few details of the saga here:


de-glazing nicasil cylinders - a new approach?

Dougherty Racing Cams - my experience

start-up issues on a 3.0 build

3.0/915 in a SWB - the perfect combo?

after some set-up delays at the shop they made one calibration run and three runs after that. the dyno guy was a little surprised, to say the least. peak HP was 215 at 5750 rpm. torque was 204 ft/lbs.

standard conversion of 15% gives 247 HP and 235 ft/lbs at the crank. decent numbers all round. I still haven't done the valves or balanced the carbs yet. also, after seeing it ( and smelling it ) on the dyno from the back I am running WAY rich.

the most impressive thing for me, and what I wanted out of this engine, is the torque curve. if you can call it a 'curve'. at 2700 rpm there's 175 ft/lbs of torque, running to the peak 204 at 4750, then fading to 175 at 5700 rpm.

just about what my 'seat' dyno was telling me, this thing pulls like a truck. I can mat the go pedal at 2000 rpm in fifth and away it goes, no muss, no fuss. many thanks to John Dougherty, he made this thing what it is.

I think I've left a little HP on the table at this point. got to lean things out a bit, could advance the timing a little more, and get a better curve than the CIS one.

thanks to everyone's input and help. paticularily Kevin ( Kevins911 ), who spent many evenings helping me, and showed uncommon patience with my endless stupid/pointless/annoying questions. a true pelican in the best tradition.

next. convert the sucker to MFI. ( edit: after a rethink, I'm building a stroker 3.2 for my MFI project, I ain't gonna mess with this one. D. )

[sc_rufctr]

Great numbers and a great looking engine.
Proof that attention to details pay off.

Motoring nirvana. Well done!

[andrew15]

That's great Don - Really nice to see a project come to success!
AM

[jpnovak]

Fantastic Don! I bet that SWB really scoots with that power curve.

[al lkosmal]

Don,
That is very nice. Great output and the torque curve is very, very flat. What the heck is that secret cam...??? That must be a hoot to drive.

PS: If you're headed to MFI, give Mark Jung (356RS) a shout, regarding the set up, etc. He is the guy that built his own MFI pump flow bench/tester and is very knowledgeable. (After I got my E pump working well, i sent it to mark, to be calibrated to factory specs...just got it back, I'll let you know how it goes))

[haycait911]

thanks for the comments guys.

maybe someone can make sense of something that's puzzling me. the graph I got for the run that shows wheelspeed instead of engine speed has a very different torque number. I'll be calling them on monday to clarify but maybe someone out there with more dyno experience can tell me what this means. many thanks, Don.

[777joee]

Interesting choices on the build. I'm building a 3.0 myself right now and have a set of 40 Webers but was thinking on going with the 46 PMO's because of the 3.0. I did have my stock 35mm intakes enlarged to 39mm. I'm also interested in the bottom end torque side rather than spinning things to 7000. Your torque/hp curve looks just right to me.

What are the other sizes of jets and tubes you used in the 40's?

Thanks,

[camgrinder]

Very nice!! What type of dyno? I'm not sure MFI will like those camshafts as much as the Webers do.

[haycait911]

also guys, FWIW I weighed in on the way to the shop. with 1/4 tank fuel and no driver it's a titch under 2100lbs. fuchs would be lighter but I do like the TT's.



ps. hi John. I'll talk to you about the cams when I get there, I might just build another 3.0 for the MFI. I'm not sure I want to mess with this one. it's a Mustang dyno.

[haycait911]

update: did some informal ( illegal) 0-60 mph runs today. by bumping up my redline to 6800 I was able to hit 60 mph in second. under wet and probably somewhat innaccurate conditions we were able to get it down to a fairly honest 5 1/2 seconds. this with a full tank of gas and a 170 lb stopwatch in the passenger seat ( Kevins911 ). in the dry with less regard for my cv joints, and a lighter load, I figure I could get into the low 5's. this thing just keeps getting funner ( more fun? ), whatever, you know what I mean.

ps. ditched the duck for the stock lid.

[Larry_Ratcliff]

Originally Posted by haycait911

also guys, FWIW I weighed in on the way to the shop. with 1/4 tank fuel and no driver it's a titch under 2100lbs. fuchs would be lighter but I do like the TT's.



ps. hi John. I'll talk to you about the cams when I get there, I might just build another 3.0 for the MFI. I'm not sure I want to mess with this one. it's a Mustang dyno.

I am curious what weight savings items you have. I can see the fiberglass bumpers but I was wondering what other things you did. I would like to get my '69 as close to 2K pounds as possible without going to extremes like carbon fiber doors etc...

[al lkosmal]

Don,
That car is a great early hot rod. One of my favorites.

regards,

Al

[haycait911]

Originally Posted by Larry_Ratcliff

I am curious what weight savings items you have. I can see the fiberglass bumpers but I was wondering what other things you did. I would like to get my '69 as close to 2K pounds as possible without going to extremes like carbon fiber doors etc...

the fiberglass bumpers you see are the big things. also a smaller Optima battery, no heavy rubber floor mats, lighter seats ( a BIG thing), no spare, no gas heater, and probably more I can't remember right now. the weight loss thing gets a bit obsessive. now I'm really thinking about glass fenders and a lighter exhaust. it's still the family ( of four ) fun car so I can't get too carried away. Don.

ps. thanks Al. this thing desperately needs a suspension. I've got a '69 S front end to go under it with a sway and Konis and carrera brakes ( it does have the early vented rotors now ), and I'll be going to 25mm bars, Konis, and a sway in the rear. I'll keep the stock vented S brakes back there.

[Jeff Higgins]

Hmm... "top secret" cam grind, eh?

John Dougherty is a great guy to work with on these "top secret" projects, isn't he? John was a great help in working out a suitable cam grind for my own oddball 3.0 project a couple of years ago. I've let my secret out of the bag, though. We settled on what he calls his "GT2/102" grind. In other words, his GT2 grind with lobe centers narrowed to 102 degrees.

It sounds like we had the same goals, and came up with the same results. Mine makes similar power, with a similar table-top flat torque curve. Makes for a very fun car to drive, as I'm sure you are discovering. These motors feel like small block Chev's back there...

Anyway, cool project.

[wilke3169]

As a comparison, I rebuilt my 3.0 about three years and 25,000 miles before dynoing last fall. I used 9.5:1 JEs, John Daughtery ground my cams to 964 grind, SSIs, and Monte muffler. No other mods, still running CIS.
My max torque was 168 and RWHP was 180.
This is what I expected and also was what the shop owner predicted prior to the Dyno Runs.
Seems a good comparison of two 3.0s with similarities and differences. Maybe I need a set of Webers...

[haycait911]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Hmm... "top secret" cam grind, eh?

actually Jeff, the grind isn't really a secret. it's detailed in the engine build thread linked at the top.

Originally Posted by wilke3169

As a comparison, I rebuilt my 3.0 about three years and 25,000 miles before dynoing last fall. I used 9.5:1 JEs, John Daughtery ground my cams to 964 grind, SSIs, and Monte muffler. No other mods, still running CIS.
My max torque was 168 and RWHP was 180.
This is what I expected and also was what the shop owner predicted prior to the Dyno Runs.
Seems a good comparison of two 3.0s with similarities and differences. Maybe I need a set of Webers...

webers will get you some of the way there. but you can kiss fuel economy goodbye. I'm getting about 13-14 mpg. mind you, the skinny pedal spends a LOT of time on the floor. the cams are the real heart of this engine. I still can't quite figure it. it's nothing exotic but everything seems to come together. I'd be very interested to see what someone else comes up with for numbers using the same cam in another 3.0. I'd strongly suspect my dyno numbers but other measurements of performance seem to agree.

we'll see where it goes. I've been experimenting with a toluene/gasoline mix and bumping up the timing a bit. best pump gas we can get here is 93 octane.

an interesting thing. now guys, don't freak out on me, but I don't have any auxilliary cooler. just the engine oil cooler. over the summer it hit 210 a couple of times but usually hangs around 190. I checked my sender/gauge with boiling water and it's dead on. I will be putting in a front cooler this winter though. mind you, I do have a cool collar installed.

thanks for all the comments guys, and Al, you aren't that far away. next year we should do a WA/B.C. thing, besides the Can-Am.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by haycait911

an interesting thing. now guys, don't freak out on me, but I don't have any auxilliary cooler. just the engine oil cooler. over the summer it hit 210 a couple of times but usually hangs around 190.

That's one of the effects of running a rich mixture. It will run cooler.

JR

[Jeff Higgins]

That's actually not bad milage on a carbed 3.0. My very similar motor gets maybe 15-17 mpg on the highway if I'm a good kid, but drops to 9 mpg or so on the track. General, all-around driving nets 12-13 at best. I would imagine with MFI on yours and carbs on mine, we would probably swap those numbers.

Speaking of the track, that is the only place mine really builds any significant heat. It will run "on the thermostat" (or right at 180 degrees) on the street come hell or high water. If I head east of the mountains to the hot side of the state, it may creep up to 210 with as hard as I dare drive it on public roads. The track is a whole different story, though. Even with an Elephant "wide mouth" fender cooler and their excellent finned lines, I could get it up over 240, where I would just pull it in. Cutting a big hole in the headlight bucket and replacing the headlight with a wire mesh screen, removing the battery box, then blocking off the area under the cooler to the tub and front bumper really helped. It still goes over 220 on the track, though. I'll be putting a second cooler in the other fender this winter. If you have plans to track yours, it might be something to consider. If not, the single cooler will be all you ever need.

[signature65]

Your engine is my dream engine right now.....a 3.0 carbed! I love my lowley MFI T engine, but like any car guy I always want more!

[berettafan]

No oil cooler up front?!

Wow that simplifies things a bit eh?

Did you guys consider Mahles and if so why did you pass? Expected life on the JE's?