Starter Motor Removal, HELP!

[Jon Green]

My starter solenoid is no more.
A local bosch agent can R&R the motor no problem.

I am having a problem removing the motor.
The bottom hex nut, no problem.

The top Allen nut is a challenge to say the least.

It is a 10mm hex female, access is OK using Warren's method of bear hugging the tranny from the drivers side.

It appears the stud that the nut fits onto is too long for the nut.

The 10mm hex key needs to fit into a recess, there is around 1-2mm of recess & this does not allow me to get enough purchase on the fastener.
The outside of the nut is round & slightly knurled, no chance of getting something to grip that well enough.

The nut is much the same as the type holding on the heat exchangers.
I think a washer or spacer has been left out when fitting the starter.
I can't work out how it was tightened up in the first place.

Help, what to do?

Jon

______________
'76 2.7S Targa

[Jens Wendorff]

I am not sure if you have enough space, but one possibility is to use a stud-remover.
Its a type of socket with an internal mechanism (3 blocking elements) which grabs a stud (e.g, an exhaust stud) for removal and assembly.
As it is working on studs, it is usually working also on any round thing (bolt head etc).
You just need to get a proper size to fit your nut (not the screw diameter). Check out if you can lean it somewhere (truck repair shop? Motorbike shop) for testing, as they are not cheap.

Just an idea

Jens

[Jon Green]

Thanks Jen,

I thought of that one already, I have a set of stud removers, the concentric type not the snail cam variant.
No joy unfortunately, there is not enough room.

It's looking more & more like an engine drop to get access & then use a cold chisel or similar.

Has anyone else had this problem?

I still can't figure how the nut was done up so tight anyway.

Thanks,
JG

[Jens Wendorff]

Are you really sure its not just gunk sitting in the head of an inhex bolt?
I have not heard that there is a stud/nut combination used.
Maybe worth checking again before dropping the engine...

Jens

[Jon Green]

Good idea, it looks quite clean up there using an inspection mirror.
It feels like a stud up to the lip of the head but I haven't picked at it with an awl or fine screwdriver.
It's difficult to get enough light up there to really see what's going on.
I'll check the Pelican parts diagrams to see what the story is.

If it was gunk I would just be compacting it with the hex key.

I'm not at all religious, but with an irish catholic mother there is obviously some influence. It's at times like this I catch myself praying to St. Jude, the patron saint of hopeless cases!
Maybe I should try Ferry Porsche instead.

Cheers,
Jon

[needlevalve]

Jon, I noticed when removing my head stud nuts, that some of them were as you described. The nut which screws on to the stud left little room to grip as it was very shallow. The 10mm hex socket that I had purchased for the removal of these nuts was useless as the hex end of it had rounded edges, so it would need to be inserted at least 3mm before being able to truly grip the nut.

What I did was purchase a high quality chrome 10mm allen key which has a squared off end. I cut a piece of it off with a grinder and slipped it into a 10mm socket. Because it was squared off it did not need to enter very deep into the nut to get a grip.

I further speculate (if you have access to a drill press) that yiou could drill the end of the allen key as to hollow it out a little leaving a concave butt that would fit over top of the stud giving you another mm or so.

Hope this helps.



------------------
Matt Macpherson
1975 911 S
nvalve@yahoo.com

[Jon Green]

I tried something similar to that, using a square ended hex key & an 10mm ratchet spanner.

I'll cut a piece of the key off & try it with a socket as you suggest, it means then that I can push the key into the aperture as I turn.

Drilling a recess into the key is another smart idea.

Thanks guys.

[addictionMS]

try using valve grinding compound in the hex bolt hole, it really gives you a lot of grip.

[FRED/LI]

Spend the time to thoroughly clean out the head. Once you've compacted all the buildup by trying to put a hex head into it, you've compounded the problem. You'll gain a purchase once it's clean.
Buy a long, new allen wrench and cut off the 'L' and you'll have a nice new, long and narrow tool that will reach and not be too confined as a short one, with socket head will. Keep it aligned straight as you loosen to avoid stripping the head.

[FRED/LI]

Originally posted by FRED/LI:
Spend the time to thoroughly clean out the head. Once you've compacted all the buildup by trying to put a hex head into it, you've compounded the problem. You'll gain a purchase once it's clean.
Buy a long, new allen wrench and cut off the 'L' and you'll have a nice new, long and narrow tool that will reach and not be too confined as a short one, with socket head will. Just fit it into a 10mm socket. Keep it aligned straight as you loosen to avoid stripping the head.

[cary]

There is a PP tech article on Partial Engine Drop if your up to that. And you have the tools.
Should give you a little more room.
Just a thought.

------------------
Cary Kutter
77 Euro Carrera w/3.2
PCA Region - Big Sky

[Early_S_Man]

Jon,

You should be able to clean the recess of the barrel nut with a few of the 'long' variety Q-tips used on audio/video equipment, sprayed with brake cleaner ... from the driver's side wheelwell, over the top of the trans. Also, the long 10 mm Allen drive used for the cylinder-head nuts works well on that top starter nut.

------------------
Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa

[ldangelo]

I had a similarly difficult time getting at this nut... Given that I was going to drop the engine anyway I saved this item for last then lowered the engine down enough so I could get access to it from the engine compartment.... Worked out quite well.

-LeoD

[Jon Green]

The starter motor is off!

Thankyou all for your support, another result for the Pelican BBS.

Basically used all of your advice,
got a very long hex wrench, cut it to size so that it was just longer than the starter.
This meant the wrench goes in absolutely straight.
Cleaned out the hex nut with brake cleaner & long Q-tip.

Light smear of grinding paste on the end of the key, lie under the car parrallel to the tranny.

Bear hug the tranny with ratchet handle pointing to drivers side.

Heave, squeek, tears of joy.

Thank you all again.

Jon
______________
'76 911S Targa

[Jens Wendorff]

Glad to hear!
But give us the finding, was it a nut or just a dirty bolt?

Jens

[Jon Green]

It was a nut exactly the same type as used to hold on the heat exchangers, didn't check the thread size, but took a 10mm hex key to undo.

The problem was as I/we thought, the stud it was done up on was nearly the same length.
It turns out I had about 2mm to insert the key into.

OK with the engine out, not so good in situ.

Anyway, the starter is being rebuilt as we speak, and the nut is going back on together with a thick washer!

I'll measure the length of hex key required & post it up tomorrow, my first fabrication was too long & the ratchet fouled the front of the gearbox.
This might help anyone who has a similar problem in the future, who knows.

Cheers all,
Jon

[Jon Green]

The key is 175mm long or 6 7/8 inches.

I found this just right, longer & you start to foul the bell housing of the gearbox.

JG

[rob911]

this is just what I need to get me moving on my clutch replacement. Only trouble is I cannot get an allen hey to slot into the socket ay 90 degrees. The retaining nut is partially obscured by the fat body of the starter. Hope that cleaning out the socket and applying grinding paste will do the trick.
It feels like a shorter "squared-off" allen socket miight be better, but it is difficult to get a ratchet handle on the end. Going to bed now, will try again tomorrow.

[82SC]

use some washers under that nut...maybe that will save you some headache next time it needs to come off

MJ

[rob911]

A-Ha! :-0 Did not need to remove the lower starter motor bolt. The 915 slid right off.
Not sure if it will slot back on so easily - still at least I can move onto the next obstacle. Getting the flywheel off.