14-16 hrs to repair transmission leaks???

[deathpunk dan]

My car's 901 gearbox has always been leaky but has gotten worse (yes, I am running Swepco in it) lately.

In the interest of getting it addressed quickly, I called a shop here in RI and told them what I needed done. They called me back saying it would be at least $1500, as it will be a minimum of 14-16 hours labor. I asked why so much labor and was told 9 hrs just to drop the engine. NINE HOURS?

WTF.

Oil is leaking in 2 spots, larger leak near where the trans and engine meet, and a smaller leak towards the front of the car.

It's just drips onto cardboard, but I realize an input shaft leak could screw up the clutch so I gotta address this. I don't know if I'm comfortable tackling this and don't mind paying to get it done by experienced pros, but $1500 seems out of line with the 6 hr quote others have posted on here for similar work.

Any thoughts?

[WilsonTC]

I agree, that seems excessive. Perhaps they don't really want the job and "bidded high".

Vote with your wallet and go somewhere else.

[Peter Zimmermann]

Excessive labor charge for engine R&I... their quote is about double what the charge should be, unless there are rust issues or you have some sort of a really weird aftermarket A/C system.

Replacing the main shaft seal is about a half an hour, but if your leak is as bad as you say the clutch disc might already be contaminated. Hopefully you have a shop that can give you a second opinion. BTW, if this is your signature '71T, your trans is a "911", not a 901.

[deathpunk dan]

Peter
My car was originally sportomatic and was converted many years and owners ago to true 1969 901 setup...

No A/C and no rust, either.

[Grady Clay]

Dan,

I agree; the nine hours to R&R the engine & trans is excessive.

The $1500 is not.

Any good shop is going to replace the transmission gasket at the nose piece and the shim gaskets between the intermediate plate. They are also going to replace the two axle flange lip seals, the shoft rod seal, the seal and O-ring at the speedometer drive AND the input shaft seal. If they are ‘in the know’, they will do the “Dam Seal” mod to the TO bearing guide tube.

During the past 40 years someone probably has already been in the ’69 901. There should be the cautionary admonition that there could be something lurking – like a previous ‘hamburger’ leak fix.

You also should have been cautioned (and quoted a price) that the entire clutch might need replacement. If the input shaft has been leaking, the disc will certainly need replacing if oil contaminated. The good news is you probably have the smaller and less expensive 215 mm 901 clutch.

There should be a discussion of the ‘while-you-are-there’ issues. This is the time to address things like engine oil cooler seals, thermostat O-ring, breather gasket, oil return tube seals, CV joint boots, etc.

The big issue is: Were you quoted any internal transmission work? There should not be a ‘surprise’ call saying your transmission is apart and needs another $?,??? worth of work. With the pieces in your hand, I would use the opportunity to make new some shifting pieces and bearings. There is also the possibility of finding a pitted R&P. You should have that understanding before you light into this.

In fairness, the $1500 quote for a possible $600 job may just be good business sense covering some unknown possibilities. I think it better for you to know all the possibilities.


All that said, this is a classic DIY project. There must be many PCA members and Pelicans who can help with time, tools, advice and ‘beer-thirty’ supervision. The Forum has the wealth of knowledge to diagnose and solve almost any problem that could arise. All the parts are available from our host at far less cost to you.

When someone asks “Who does your work?” Your answer is: “I do.” Very satisfying and probably a better result.

Best,
Grady

[Porsche_monkey]

D.I.Y. Easy job. Come back here if you get stuck. One weekend and you will be back on the road drip free.

Peter and Grady know more about this job than the shop you called. Guaranteed.

[Gogar]

Dan,

You could also consider removing the engine/trans yourself and pulling the trans off and taking it in to get a reseal.

My local mechanic replaced all the seals on my '72 915 (which requires almost complete disassembly) and charged me 3 hours labor.

[db_cooper]

I recall there are some early Porsche transmissions that have the input shaft seal on the inside of the housing. Requires the transmission be completely disassembled to replace. Don't remember if it was an early 915 or late 901. I do remember it being a huge pain to replace a $5 seal. Could be an answer to the question?

[Grady Clay]

db,

Nah, that is the ’72 915 input shaft seal that didn’t pass the engineering ‘laugh test’.


Dan,

71 911t, Sepia Brown, now with fresh engine & valid registration!

There should be a discussion of the ‘while-you-are-there’ issues. This is the time to address things like engine oil cooler seals, thermostat O-ring, breather gasket, oil return tube seals, CV joint boots, etc.

I should have said:
This is the opportunity to do some maintenance on your ‘fresh’ engine.

With the engine out, you can address those ‘pesky’ oil leaks that “may” be there.

Seriously, this may be the time for a ‘perfect’ valve adjustment after an extended ‘sporting drive’, transmission leak be damned (just so long as it has full oil). You can then also re-torque the head nuts and rocker shafts.

I suspect there may also be things that were not attended to in the ‘freshening’ process that might make sense now – assuming there isn’t a big transmission issue.


I agree with Pelican Gogar, R&R the engine and transmission yourself is easy. Cleaning the exterior of the transmission is labor intensive and doing it yourself will save paying shop rates for ‘busy-work’. If you have the magnesium ‘69 (901/13), you will want to re-coat it with Factory-like preservative. (The Factory originally used Tectyl wax coating even on the aluminum transmissions like the ’69 901/07. Required on mag cases.)

You can easily UPS a complete transmission. There are excellent Porsche transmission experts all across the States.

There are no special skills diagnosing and replacing clutch parts.

Search Pelican on “Dam Seal”. That can save a new clutch from a leaky (even new) input shaft seal.

Best,
Grady

[deathpunk dan]

Thank you all esp Misters Clay & Zimmerman for your detailed and helpful responses. I called the shop back and verified that $1500 was just for seal replacement and nothing else. Contemplating making this another DIY project.

Next step is to start gathering new parts incl clutch disc just to be on the safe side. The car shifts pretty nicely for what it is, so I'm hoping to keep this minimally invasive.

Searching for 'dam seal' now.

Again, thanks all.

[Christien]

Dan, have you ever dropped your engine? That's the bulk of the work to reseal the tranny. When I dropped mine, I didn't seal it properly so it had to come out again. Working solo, it takes me about an hour, maybe 90 min. to get the engine and tranny out. Get the tranny up on the work bench, crack it open, clean the mating surfaces up, apply sealant, gasket, sealant, but the pieces back together, maybe an hour. Remate tranny to engine, reinstall the whole lot back in the car, hook everything up, maybe 2-3 hours. So total time would be 4-6 hours.

Any shop that quotes you 9 hours to drop the engine should be taken off your list. I've only had my engine out 3 or 4 times, and I've got it down to an hour out, 2 hours in. It's really not that hard. And that's in my garage, without a lift, no air compressor, just wrenches, sockets, etc. and a really big floor jack. And no training - 4 years ago I had no idea what a carburetor was. Literally.

After I resealed mine, I was really pissed when it continued to leak. Then someone pointed out the breather on the top, and that it had to be pointing forwards. I turned it 90* and it stopped leaking. So sealing really is a piece of cake. Just make sure you use a good sealant.

[deathpunk dan]

Okay.

I think I'm gonna do this. I've been able to do just about everything else thus far. There's precious little room in our cluttered 1 car garage, but we have a large workshop here at work. A Factory 5 Cobra was built in it, so it is certainly a suitable environment.

Normally, my dad would be in on this but I hate to bother him as his summer is booked with sailing and related activities. If any RI/SE MA pelicans see this thread and have any interest in the festivities, I will provide food and drink.

Dan

[Grady Clay]

Dan,

OK, let’s get poking around and see what pieces are necessary.

Get under the car and inspect the CV joint boots.
Test fit an 8 mm Allen wrench to all the CV joint bolts looking for damaged hexes. In this area you will need new CV joint gaskets (early, outside the bolts) and new Schnorr washers.

Many times you can make the engine & trans removal go faster by pre-unscrewing and re-torque all the fasteners. This can prevent ‘surprises’ when you want to go start-to-finish all at once.

It is not uncommon to find the ‘grub’ screw for the shift linkage rounded out, the large (27 mm) nut for the speedometer cable seized or a transmission mount bolt cross-threaded. Finding and addressing these before your ‘shop day’ will let you go start-to-finish.

I recall Pelican john_cramer started a thread for every detail of an engine R&R. That might be a good starting point for this. Make yourself a sequential check-list. Go to your shop and locate all the tools, equipment and sources for everything you will need. Oil drain pans? Oil disposal? Jacks & lifts? Tools? More?

Are you going to try and remove the engine & trans, fix the leak and reinstall all at once? What happens if that isn’t possible? Where do you put the car? What do you do with the engine & transmission? Is there weekend access to parts you might need?

If you must move the car, you can push it with the axles wired up. If you need to flat-tow it anywhere, you need to remove the axle assemblies but leave the stub axles torqued in place.

Another issue is recovering from some broken or stripped fastener. Is there access to fixing things?


One of the philosophical differences between a shop environment and DIY is the ability to get something done start-to-finish no matter what. Typically, DIY solves issues with time. You can stop for a week while you find the missing part or repair the broken piece. A good shop is prepared for any eventuality.

You can solve many of these issues with good planning and the advance set-up.



I’ll repeat my admonition to get some high-performance miles on the engine before this effort. Classic long distance “Italian Tune-Up” This gets all the carbon from under the valves. A nice valve adjust, head nut torque and rocker arm shaft bolt torque is very easy when the engine is on a stand.

Best,
Grady

[Christien]

Great stuff from Grady there. You need to replace CV joint gaskets every time you drop the engine, not because they're one-use-only, but, at least in my experience, they break every damn time... But I think that's the only thing that will for sure get destroyed.

But above all, you need to be prepared for what happens if something goes wrong - say, a stripped stud or nut or something that might require a special tool or a replacement to come in the mail from Pelican. What happens during those few days? Is your space ok with the car there? I can't count how many times I've had a project on hold just sitting there, waiting for some obscure part to come by mail. Luckily for us, the car can sit in the garage no problem - worst case scenario is I have to brush the snow off the Honda in the driveway for my wife

"While you're in there" stuff would include oil pressure/temp gaskets and a valve adjustment (so easy with the engine on the floor or a stand) - that's the easy, standard, cheap stuff. If you're feeling more adventurous, pull off the fan shroud and clean up the top of the engine. When I did, I couldn't believe how much crap was in there. If you do that, have a look at the top of the oil cooler, too - I had a ton of gunk in there too, and cleaned it all out.

Alternatively, if you don't have any leaks, valves were recently adjusted, and you're careful and don't come across any overly stuck or rusted nuts and bolts, there's no reason you couldn't have the entire thing done in a day and be back driving it the next day. It's a lot of work for one day, no doubt, but definitely do-able. Again, coming back to your original quote from the shop, 14-16 hours is very high for a pro. I could do it in less than that - maybe as little as half that - assuming no unforeseen issues arise.

[mpeastend]

Hi Grady, not to hi-jack this thread but how exactly would you fix a cross-threaded transmission mounting bolt? Replacing the bolt is easy but how would you fix the female threads which are in the body mount? Only thing I can think of would be drilling out threads and cutting new ones to a larger size...but where to find a bolt that would fit? I guess it would be McMasters & a prayer.

BTW, thanks Grady for all your help over the phone regarding storing/use/dispensing of racing fuel. I've implemented the things we spoke about over the phone and everything's been working out great! Twenty gallon barrels seem the perfect manageable size for transport in a Honda Civic & wrestling around. Wish I could drive it more but hopefully in the future. Thanks again!

[Grady Clay]

mpeastend,

It is unfortunately too easy to cross-thread the transmission mount bolts – if you assume the taper is for self-starting and use an impact wrench. Un-knowledgeable shop mechanics (and POs) make this mistake. You should be able to thread the bolt into the chassis 3-4 turns by finger - first. An impact wrench is OK to cinch them up prior to torque with a calibrated wrench.

The best common repair is a 12x1.5 mm Helicoil. The difficult part is to get it straight while working upside-down. A way to do this is to have another transmission mount with the through hole enlarged to fit the Helicoil drill and tap. Bolt the ‘fixture’ in place with the good side and use it to as a ‘drill guide’.


In Dan’s situation, simply checking to see if you can loosen the bolt a couple of turns and then re-torque will insure you won’t have an issue when you want to complete a ‘start-to-finish’ project.

Best,
Grady

PS, I’m resurrecting my street ’70 914-6 2.8S with even higher CR (12+:1 CR) so I will be back to 112 octane drums.

[304065]

How to Drop a 911 Engine in Nine Hours

Step 1:

Read engine drop checklist and visualize all steps, assemble tools: 15 minutes:

Ultimate SWB Engine Drop Checklist

Step 2: Take an eight hour nap.

Step 3: Spend 45 minutes dropping engine.

[sparkle84]

You forgot about reinstalling. I guess that would require a 2nd nap.

[Joe Bob]

Be sure to send them an "eat my shorts" note when yer done.....

[dentist90]

"Oh, and while you're in there..." = 20 extra hours

(or you can just drop the assembly again next year to get at what you missed. Ask me how I know )