'71 Wheel Alignment Issues
 

Went today to a shop with a digital alignment system to make adjustments as the car is pulling to the right somewhat firmly. They said that they are able to handle the job on this vintage Porsche.

I immediately lost confidence in the tech when he asked if the car had a turbo. :rolleyes:

After 15 minutes, the manager came over and showed me the readouts and said that the numbers were considerably off and an additional 45 minutes were needed to finish the job and that there were no parts needed to replace. I asked again whether they are capable of making the adjustments and was reassured it was not a problem.

What was suppose to take 45 minutes took 2 hours. Finally the tech drove it around the block and I paid the bill. The tech came over to the counter and showed me the results of the alignment stating that he could not make all the numbers come in as it was at the adjustment limits. BUT, it should "drive a lot better" now! :confused:

As I drove it out of the shop and down the street, seemed nothing had changed.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1273545294.jpg

Reading Mike Piera's(Pelican Tech Advice Article) recommendations on setting up the alignment, camber should be set to -1 to -1.5 in the rear and .5 less in the front. Seems the data for the alignment system the shop is using is wrong as its target is -.5 and 0.0 for the front.

Feedback from a Porsche mechanic who doesn't do alignments said that the numbers right or wrong at least have to be the same and to go with a shop that understands Porsche's little peculiarities.

I took some photos of the top of the front strut camber plates and the rubber insert that looks cracked. I think this is a problem:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1273557917.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1273558693.jpg

Is this the correct part I need?: 911-341-018-00-OEM

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1273558728.gif


Is this difficult to replace??



Thanks all for your feedback.

Your strut "tops" look fine. The cracking of the "rubber" is the factory sealant applied to keep water out.

it needs to be scraped off to allowfor proper movement of the strut top for alignments.

You need to take the car to a shop that knows 911s or learn more about alignment specs and then YOU can assist them, even if just telling them what to do.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/533471-need-alignment-help.html


Did they do anything to the rear?

Looks to me that all they set was toe in the front, did you ask for a full alignment?

jeebus christmas. where are you?

I told them about the steering pull. They went ahead did what they did, assumed they knew what they were doing.

Thanks to you guys, I need to take a more active role with the shop. :)

The original shop should be able to get the numbers to:

• rear camber back to -1.5 and even the toe to at least an even -0.34.
• front camber to -1.1 even, caster to 6.5 even

1. What about the toe for the front & rear...can they be opposites?

Where in the bay area are you? I can recommend the guy who did my alignment - I was VERY happy...

JB

Hi Jim, I am in SF.

I am hesitant to go back to the same shop. I think they can get the numbers better. Vanguard Motors of SF recommend All Tire(also in the City). However I will travel for the best expertise! ;)

Hoping to get this car ready to go checkout the Marin Sonoma Concours Show this Sunday... the featured marque is.... PORSCHE!
Marin Sonoma Concours d' Elegance

PM sent....

That's right. The left wheel tilted in with excessive negative camber will cause your steering to lead to the right. The right wheel with slight positive camber will also lead your steering in the direction of the tilt of the wheel, which is to the right also.

It's possible that your left strut/spindle is bent, preventing correct alignment.



Cheers,

Joe

Equalizing the camber (both at -1.1 if that's the best they could do) would have been a better choice...

JB

After reading from the web such as this one:
Correcting Steering Pull

The steering pull could also be from brake drag. And I do know the front are dragging and I just got off the phone from a mechanic from The Stable, a well-known 356/911 shop.

I may need to rebuild my calipers...they charge a tidy sum for that! Sorry, this topic is now shifting into brake caliper rebuilding! :(

Welll........... I'd still be looking elsewhere. But, to cover the bases, do you notice abnormal pad wear on the right side? Calipers are easy to rebuild - definitely a DIY project.

JB

Just evaluated the brake drag...left is worst than the right.. oddly!

Is there an easier route than rebuilding the calipers... special lubricants, spraying brake cleaner, ???

Should the rears spin just as freely, in theory?

The brakes are easily rebuilt using parts you can get right here on Pelican.

While mine is an SC, I did all 4 of mine a few winters ago and they turned out great. I had a sticking caliper as well although it didn't cause any steering problems.

When you spin the wheels can you hear grinding/scraping? You should have a small amount of drag when the pads are resting against the rotor but the wheels should turn freely.

While in there, it would be a good time to replace the rubber lines at each caliper. You will have to bleed the system after the rebuild anyway. Do the complete system at one time, if you have the funds.

Remember, you have a TON of knowledge on this board so if you need a hand, just let us know.SmileWavy

The drag you feel COULD be wheel bearings that need adjusting or replacing.

take some time and read these threads on caliper/brake system rebuilding and you can get a feel if it is something you can do.

Pelican Parts Technical BBS - Search Results

Even if you have and resolve brake drag issues, it is mandatory that you corner balance your car.
I have a 71' and went through two alignments one at a local recommended tire joint and a race shop here in the NW, (Fordahl) and the specs were great. I asked if the car went straight down the road and both techs said sure.
Before I was out of second gear the car was heading to the curb as before.
I did a little research and found how sensitive these cars are to ride height and balance.

David

UPDATE:

Sorry been a little under the weather, but improved today.

Jim at Easy Porsche said his experience is to replace the brake hoses. You cannot tell from the outside as they swell from the inside. I cut them and indeed that they were swollen and restricted the flow. Unfortunately the caliper did not fully release. So I am rebuilding the calipers today. I need to check on the rears and like redo all 4 corners hopefully by today!

So guess what...you're probably wasting your time and will still have that pull to the right when you're done.

At this point, you are better off abandoning your caliper rebuild for a couple of beers and I'll see you at the Civic Center on Sunday.


Cheers,

Joe

It's amazing what some "mechanics" will call an alignment.
Owning a 71 myself I've been there..

For sure replace the brake hoses if they are more than ten years old. If they have never been replaced get them out of there ASAP as the OEM ones WILL cause problems. It is also prudent to bleed and replace the old brake fluid every year or two.

You should take your car to a PORSCHE mechanic. NOT a "foreign" car place. Only a place SPECIALIZING in PORSCHES will have the knowledge to properly diagnose the problems. Hopefully some will chime in with recommendations in your area. A good source is the local PCA. You should join, it's not expensive, and will pay for itself in perks.

Next you need to make sure that the suspension is "tight" Can you rock the front tires. There should be NO play in the suspension. You need to make sure the front strut inserts are good, the ball joints are tight and the tierod ends are not worn. Not to mention the front bushings. All of these items wear and are critical to proper handling and safety.

Bent struts do happen, but that would be the last thing to check.

The printout could not have made it more clear. Left front camber -1.1 degrees compared to +0.1 degrees on the right?

"The tech came over to the counter and showed me the results of the alignment stating that he could not make all the numbers come in as it was at the adjustment limits." ....Hmmmm

Looks like a red flag to me! A bent strut/spindle would certainly be on the top of my list.

Also, the 1.2 degree difference in caster, together with the uneven camber issue makes it clear to see why you have a pull to the right.



Cheers,

Joe

Ahh, the Bay to Breakers Race. But that is on Saturday.

What is going on Sunday at the Civic Center? There is a huge metal sculpture there. Very cool.

Wow, a bent strut... i.e. the shock absorber? Could this offset in the alignment numbers be visually noticeable?

The Civic Center is more or less the same as the Marin County Fair Grounds...you know, the Concours.

Depends how far you stand back and look.

Rrright! You are closeby. :D

Corner balance.

UPDATE:

Starting a new Topic under "911T Sporto Brake Calipers Frozen...Help!"

Once I get the brakes back in shape I will continue the wheel alignment saga... stay tuned!

You should also check the attatchment from the strut to the ball joint. These can come loose on these cars.

OK. If your strut/spindle is not bent, there is a possibility that your left front wheel bearing is loose too.

Visually the strut looks straight and attached to the wishbone. Wishbone looks okay as well.

How do you check for wheel bearing looseness...with wheel on, see if there is play at 12 & 6 and 3 & 9 o'clock positions?

"with wheel on, see if there is play at 12 & 6" and off the ground.

Here are some pics of the wishbone area. There are two tabs with a hole thru them and are bent slightly...what are they for??
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1273868611.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1273868714.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1273868800.jpg

And where was the marin county fair held before, no cheating now?

Sway bar attachments.

Front sway bar a standard equipment item?

Got to the event on the late side(1pm). The Porsche Corral was thinned out. The Porsches in the competition were nice. Somehow I was underwhelmed by the variety of Porsches present.

Will post pics in the appropriate forum area.

On certain cars, yes. Look under to see if it's attached via a nut as some after market bars supply the u-tab which allows you to drill a hole and attach it with a nut.

Okay. Got the brakes in order and returned to the alignment shop.

I watched over and worked with this different technician at the same shop.

The numbers improved in the rears: -1.4 camber.

The fronts were hitting the limits to the point that he could not even balance the camber:

-2.0 left 0.4 on the right.

The recommendation was to grind the holes out to get more range! Is this uncommon?

I have no ideal how old the front struts are, perhaps this could be the problem as well.

Also the car is likely lowered (not my me) as this was often done for appearance sake.

Any recommendations?

Will post pics later...

Go to a shop that sets up Porsches for the track. They will know what to do and how to get you there.

I had my car lowered, aligned and corner balanced by Rothsport Road abnd Race and the results were amazing. Costwise, it was about the same any any other decent shop.

Here's some info regarding cars that are refreshed without questionable issues, age of shocks, strut inserts, etc.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/533471-need-alignment-help.html

David