MSD Upgrade

[Paul W]

Hi guys

Spent the last couple of days perusing Wayne’s book and was wondering if my car would benefit from an upgrade to the MSD ignition system. I think my car is pre ‘CD’ ignition but has had a modification to the distributor so it is now pointless (ie electronic controller).

Any thoughts on whether this would be worthwhile? I'd be very interested to hear from anyone with before and after experiences.

Regards

On my Chevy 377cid motor it helped at idle & off idle and full power. You end up with better throttle response and it helps with rich idle mixtures. Also was good at high rpm (8400 shift & 8200 across the line). I used the 6T model, but the 6AL or the 6A will work good.
Make sure you have very good plug wires, or you will find yourself with very kinky hair You havn't lived till youve been poped by an MSD unit.
They run around $150.00 US
Well it's not a Porsche before and after but they do work.

[jkeyzer]

I just put an MSD 6A in my 72 the other day and it seems to have improved starting times and idle, but I was running a stock CD box with an incorrect coil before the swap. The trickiest part about the installation is figuring out where to put that big red box.

You may need a tach adapter depending on whether your car gets its tach signal directly from the points. If it does then you probably don't need one.

The best price I was able to find was at Summit Racing, www.summitracing.com. The 6A is around $130. Their service has been very good.

Since you don't have CD you probably would see a noticeable improvement.

[Fishcop]

Paul, talk to CamB over in the State of New Zealand. He's just recently set up MSD and a few other goodies on his car. A search of the threads around October will probably find his report.

Merry Christmas

[jluetjen]

I've put an MSD6A on my '69E 2.0 and it made a world of difference to the idle and part throttle running up to about 3000 RPM. The engine pulls a lot smoother and cleaner from low rev's. Since that is the range where I do all of my around driving, it made a big difference. I did need to use a tach adaptor as well as buy a Chrysler ballest resister at the local parts store to make it work. A couple of key points.

1) I wired it up according to the installation instructions for the Tach Adaptor PN8910, figure
1.

2) I ADDED a connection from +12v through the Chrysler ballest resister to the red wire between the ignition key and the 8910.

3) I have a Lumination optical kit in the distributor instead of the original points. It doesn't cost much and eliminates point of wear and variation in the system.

Good Luck and let me know if you need some more information.

[Paul W]

Thanks for the feed back guys. Cwood, interested to here of your before and after experience, especially as I am keen to achieve a little more top end. With the optical timing kit I have starting and idle is no issue – it’s totally bullet proof.

Jeff – where did you end up putting that ugly big MSD box? Short of painting it black it seems a little difficult to position it discretely.

John – Thanks for the tips, sounds like we would end up with a very similar set up. I have a Piranha optical ignition unit fitted, which as you mentioned takes a lot of the variation and many moving parts out of the process. By way of a bit more info why did you have to install a ballast resistor? I thought this system was supposed to virtually ‘plug and play’? With the installation does the system involve playing around with the timing or the distributor generally? As the PO had the timing system professionally installed I’d rather leave the distributor alone. Finally how did you go with gaping plugs etc. Wayne’s book mentions playing around with gaps to find the right setting?

John F – Good to hear from you. If I get a chance I might drop Cam a line. I haven’t forgotten digging up that source of Weber parts for you, its just I’ve misplaced the receipt. I know where the shop is it's just a matter of tracking them down in the yellow pages, which I’ll do over the next couple of days. Hope all is going well up North – must be getting pretty monsoonal up there about now. By the way if you’re looking for a source for Wayne’s book its available through the technical book shop here in Melbourne, who have an online store http://www.techbooks.com.au

Merry Christmas to all

[Paul W]

Oop's double posted

[Fishcop]

Cheers Paul, yep getting real warm and wet. I've already bought Wayne's book...I just had to have a signed copy, even if it did double the price Good luck with the MSD, let me know how it goes, particularly with your Marelli.

Cheers

[CamB]

Hello Australia

Yep, I installed the MSD 6AL about 2 months ago. The car was transformed, largely because:

1. I have a Marelli dizzy and the points, coil and rotor are fairly rough

2. I had no CD box at all, so just had points and a coil

3. I also replaced the plug wires (1 of my beru connectors wasn't working when it was hot and another pretty much all the time!)

The MSD unit is doing an excellent job of band-aiding the Marelli problem. You are in better shape as you already have the points bypassed.

The MSD definitely seems to help at lower revs (the Multiple Spark Discharge part ). I can leave it idling for as long as I like without the plugs fouling and I have a HUGE plug gap (about 0.050" per MSD instructions) and Webers.

Additionally, I needed the MSD tach adaptor as my tach is designed to run from the coil (and the MSD causes it to overread) not the points trigger, and finally I also bought an MSD Blaster High Vibration coil - the UGLY sticker peels off leaving an understated black coil underneath.

The biggest issue as discussed it where to mount it - it is HUGE. I mounted it as per the post below, but Matt Smith (another Kiwi) has mounted his one the firewall behind the engine and out of sight.

http://www.pelicanparts.com/cgi-bin/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52380&highlight=msd

[Paul W]

G’day Cam. I remember reading the linked posts, mainly due the reference to how low your car is. The PO of my car did a similar trick the result being my rear sway links are only a few c.ms off the road – even had to additionally ramp my driveway to stop the car bottoming out.

Thanks for the advice on the MSD. I’ve decided to install it (along with 930 tie rods) after I get the car back from the panel shop. I’m thinking of positioning the unit at the back of the engine as Matt did but will ultimately work it out at the time. I take it from your description that installation of the system doesn’t involve too much playing around with the dizzy?

Regards

[jkeyzer]

Paul -

After much thought and frustration I decided
to put the box on the firewall in the back of the engine compartment. With the air box in place you can hardly see it. I removed the sound pad to do this and probably won't put it back. If I do, I'll just cut out a rectangle for the box to stick through.

I tried to somehow fit it onto the plate that the stock CD box mounts to, but couldn't make it fit.

[CamB]

Originally posted by Paul W
I take it from your description that installation of the system doesn’t involve too much playing around with the dizzy?

No playing around at all. It may be a bit trickier for you with the points replacement - MSD have pretty good instructions (and cover various points replacement systems) and once you figure out how the system works it is reasonably intuitive.

Cam

[72SMFI]

I wounder how much the MSD improves the idle and part throttle response to a P car. If you would folow MSD instructions and install the power directly from to the battery install new plug wires. Also install new positive and negitive wires to the coil. Supplied withe the kit. IF you did all that to our CDS style system you might get the same improvement. I did when I replaced all those wires and found a bad spark plug wire end... I even thought my perma tune was toast.....Wayne

[J P Stein]

I'm told, by one S. Weiner, that the MSD unit and coil is the hot setup for carbed 911 engines......we single pluged types, at least.

I find it necessary to run rich on the idle circuit to avoid flat spots.
Coupled with Solex cams, this leads to premature plug fouling and hard starting.

Steve says that the big advantage to the MSD unit (and coil) is it gives, not only the multiple spark, but also allows one to open the gap on the plugs to .045/.050. It supplies the voltage (about 40K) to jump these gaps clear thru the rpm range. The Bosch or Permatune/Bosch coil won't do it (says he). The object, of course, is to do a better job of lighting the fire. Any performance gain would be a bonus, to me.

Since I haven't got one installed yet (it's on the shelf), I can't give a first hand report. The posts above give me encouragement.

On the subject. Any recommendations for a plug heat range?
I'm running 9.6:1 compression. I prefer NKGs, but am open to suggestions.

JPIII
Vancouver, Wa (27 straight days of rain, and counting)

[72SMFI]

Tell Steve, Jeff Gamroth at Rothsport Who Personaly knows Steve better than you and me Says "the Permatune is hard to beat"I asked him "what is the best ignition out there" He asked what is wrong with my car. and said the Permatune and Bosch sytems are hard to beat. Jeff Gamroth builds race cars for PCA and SCCA here in Portland area.. When Wiener says his shop dosent do maintance. You better know someone there. Because they dont. Its is a money no object just tell him how fast you want to go kind a place...

[Oldporsche]

Yes, the permatune or std bosch units are hard to beat, especially under ideal stock conditions. As soon as you start richening the idle to reduce the flat spots however the multiple spark aspect of the MSD starts to really show its stuff. I have had both! For street use, on carbs, the MSD unit would be the one to beat.

Good luck,
David Duffield

[72SMFI]

I dont want to ignite a big flame war here."no pun intendid" I thought the MFI cars "like mine are running pretty rich" I am just trying to save some heart ache and trouble trying to fit a big red ugly box in a square hole

More detailed info than my first post
Ok so my example is not a flat 6.
400CID block
350 Crank and rods
12.5:1 SpeedPRO 400CID pistons ~12.2:1
Chevy first genaration Bowtie heads gasket matched, with Manley Pro-Flo stainless valves 2.05 int 1.6 exh.
Edelbrock Victor 4X4 intake with 2" open spacer
Crower track roller cam .625 ~ lift int&exh crane roller lifters & rocker arms
B&B stud girdle
Holley 4780 double pumper
1 7/8" primary & 4" collector headers
Powerglide with trans brake ~6200 stall torque convertor
Ford 9" with 5.43:1 gears
11.5X29.5X15 slicks
2800 lbs with driver 1963 ChevyII
VP race gas
Best ET @ SIR/Bremerton raceway 10.53 @125MPH both tracks.
I also had better 60' times than most super gas cars.
MSD billit distributor and MSD 6T ign box and high output coil.
I had a mallory (piece of @$it) when I replaced it with MSD set up the car ran lower et's but the plugs showed a lean condition. It required changing the jets up 4 sizes in both primary and secoundary circuits. Also it provided alot better starting, idle and power. Also total advance changed.
I have seen all the different "trick" things pushed on drag racers but the MSD units did work for me.
Also when changing stuff it requires testing and documentation to see if any change is a good change. It took 3 years to get my car running as fast as it did. Did I end up with piles of stuff that did not work yep.
Wow to long...
Install the MSD unit and you will be satisfied. But also realise that you may have to make other changes to get the most bennifit from it. But do make sure your plug wires cap/rotor are in very good condition and don't go cheap. As I said in my first post you have not lived untill a MSD ign has zapped ya
Chris

[J P Stein]

I've met those guys and 72MFI is right. If you want to do 'bidness" with Rennsport, bring money. They are nice enough to answer my stupid questions, tho.

As for "trying to fit a big red ugly box in a square hole", I think it goes with the decor :-)

[jluetjen]

Hello Paul;
I'm sorry for the delay in responding, but I've been off-line for a few days. Let me see if I can respond to your questions (at least to the best of my understanding!)

By way of a bit more info why did you have to install a ballast resistor? I thought this system was supposed to virtually ‘plug and play’?

>> I believe that it has to do with the design of the electronics for the Crane XR700 ignition module that replaced the points. As installed, all that the ballest resister does (if I remember by electronics correctly...) is pull up the voltage on that wire so that it doesn't go completely down to 0V when the key is on. It is described as a "Chrysler 2 pole ballest resister" in the Crane documentation and calls out the Echlin part number ICR23 or Wells part number CR107.

With the installation does the system involve playing around with the timing or the distributor generally?

>> No. I never touched the distributor or the timing.

Finally how did you go with gaping plugs etc. Wayne’s book mentions playing around with gaps to find the right setting?

>> .040 or .050 sounds about right. Generally I think that you want the widest gap that the ignition can consistantly jump since it promotes good ignition of the mixture. The gap will also depend on the plugs, basically platnum plugs generally allow larger gaps (all other things being equal). This then opens up the platnum/copper plug debate for early 911's...

Finally; I mounted my MSD to the fire wall behind the fuel filter. I don't have a sound pad installed, nor a radio for that matter!