Should I go Digital WUR or Bitz EFI?

[pjo046]

I want to upgrade my engine, to get better driveability, and hopefully some more power as well.

I have been researching a bit, and found my options to be:

1) Install digital WUR to control fuel and a computronix DIS6 to control the ignition
http://unwiredtools.com/utcis-pt.asp
http://www.compu-tronix.com/DIS6911.htm

2) Install a Bitz racing EFI kit. If I understand it correctly, this only controls the fueling, so I would still need to upgrade my ignition. Unless I use Megasquirt 2?
http://www.bitzracing.com/products/Partial_EFI_KIT/index.html

3) Install 3.2 intake manifold, along with any aftermarket standalone crank-triggered EFI of choice (Electromotive TEC3R, etc).

Of course, in the future I might consider changing pistons to get a higher compression and larger displacement, perhaps along with upgraded camshafts. But for now, my main priority is better fuel- and ignition control.

Option 3 will be the most expensive and probably most time consuming path, so this is the least likely option for me. Of course, it would probably also be the best solution, for optimum power and driveability..

A partial Bitz racing kit costs $1425, and probably around $1800 complete with injectors and a FPR. And this is with stock ignition. It takes some time to install, and requires some initial tuning to use, and further fine tuning with time.

The Digital WUR is $699 and the DIS6 with rew limiter is $734.95, giving a total of $1434. This combo would be very straight forward to install, and more or less ready to drive as is, with the option of fine-adjusting things with time.

So, is the Bitz EFI kit really much better than digital WUR/DIS6? What are your thoughts and experiences on this? Is the digital WUR capable of near EFI-like tuning, or will it mostly just cure the cold/hot-start problems common with the CIS-system, but not do much for performance?

[beepbeep]

Go for #3 with MS-II and EDIS-6 coilpack. EDIS costs 100 bucks or so and MS-II costs 500$ fully assembled...that leaves some money on table for injectors (6 x Bosch 0280 150 431 from SAAB 9000 2.3t used should run for 150$ or so). Spend rest on WBO2, Carrera intake, Bosch 040 pump and tuning...

If you want to go all-out, twin-plug the heads and get second EDIS-6 coilpack.

[pjo046]

Will this involve crank-triggering for the ignition?
Are base-maps for this setup available here on the forum, or will I have to start from scratch?

[pjo046]

If I buy a 3.2-intake complete with injectors, can those injectors be used with MS-II?

I am not the most skilled when it comes to wiring diagrams, etc, but I can of course learn. How hard is it to install the MS-II system? Can it be done in a weekend? Is it absolutely necessary with dyno-tuning, or can it be achieved on the road?

[sjf911]

The 3.2 injectors are low impedance and about 19 lbs/hour IIRC. Megasquirt can run these with either pulse width modulation or by adding resistors to each injector.
http://www.megamanual.com/v22manual/minj.htm
The easiest and least involved option would be the Tbitz kit. You get an entire EFI system already programmed with great instructions and support and minimal tuning. If you do it on your own, you have to be prepared to spend a lot of time setting up and tuning your system. This is best done with at least some time on the dyno.
MS-II or microsquirt offers you complete ignition control and flexibility. The MS-3 system is almost available now and will offer true sequential control with individual cylinder trim and more ignition and output options for performance enhancements.

[gsmith660]

Originally Posted by pjo046

I want to upgrade my engine, to get better driveability, and hopefully some more power as well.

I have been researching a bit, and found my options to be:

1) Install digital WUR to control fuel and a computronix DIS6 to control the ignition
http://unwiredtools.com/utcis-pt.asp
http://www.compu-tronix.com/DIS6911.htm

2) Install a Bitz racing EFI kit. If I understand it correctly, this only controls the fueling, so I would still need to upgrade my ignition. Unless I use Megasquirt 2?
http://www.bitzracing.com/products/Partial_EFI_KIT/index.html

3) Install 3.2 intake manifold, along with any aftermarket standalone crank-triggered EFI of choice (Electromotive TEC3R, etc).

Of course, in the future I might consider changing pistons to get a higher compression and larger displacement, perhaps along with upgraded camshafts. But for now, my main priority is better fuel- and ignition control.

Option 3 will be the most expensive and probably most time consuming path, so this is the least likely option for me. Of course, it would probably also be the best solution, for optimum power and driveability..

A partial Bitz racing kit costs $1425, and probably around $1800 complete with injectors and a FPR. And this is with stock ignition. It takes some time to install, and requires some initial tuning to use, and further fine tuning with time.

The Digital WUR is $699 and the DIS6 with rew limiter is $734.95, giving a total of $1434. This combo would be very straight forward to install, and more or less ready to drive as is, with the option of fine-adjusting things with time.

So, is the Bitz EFI kit really much better than digital WUR/DIS6? What are your thoughts and experiences on this? Is the digital WUR capable of near EFI-like tuning, or will it mostly just cure the cold/hot-start problems common with the CIS-system, but not do much for performance?

You can install the Bitz kit and add new firmware MS-1 extra and you can install EDIS ( I just did all of this) and the ECU controls the spark EDIS is about 500 to install the Bitz kit needs the 30 lb/hr injectors he recommends. Before I turbocharged my motor the bitz kit ran well right out of the box so the tuning is minor if you add the MS-1 extra will require more tuning but with the 12x12 map and other features it is worth it I added the EDIS because the stock advance curve was not good for turbo application, do this and your tuning possibilities are endless. I havent looked into the digital WUR but as I understand it allows you to fine tune control pressure but you still have to contend with aging and expensive CIS components. Good luck

[gsmith660]

Are you aware the DWUR you linked to is for turbo applications and the DIS system you have linked to is for carburated motors which I dont think makes much difference but it still has moving parts that have slop in them a EDIS system has no moving parts and is rock steady and if you get bit by the upgrade bug the upgrade cost to twin plug is 120 bucks for a controller and a new coil.

[gsmith660]

Originally Posted by pjo046

Will this involve crank-triggering for the ignition?
Are base-maps for this setup available here on the forum, or will I have to start from scratch?

Definately go with the 3.2 intake but still go with the high impedance injectors it just makes life simpler. Try this thread here this is some of installing the bitz system on a 3.2 intake and the wiring involved and also get a wideband O2 sensor it will make your life easier.

Need some advise

This thread for some of the EDIS install (note: dont get the wheel from goingsuperfast.com as they suck, go Clewitt racing)

Help me build a motor that will last longer than 200 miles

[pjo046]

Hmm. I am getting more and more convinced. :-) But is the Bitz kit really worth it, versus just buying a MS-II and using the stock 3.2 fuel rail but with new injectors? Do one have to take the engine out in order to install all the sensors, or is it doable with the engine still in the car?

If I go ahead with this, could I borrow your map as a starting point?

[beepbeep]

Originally Posted by pjo046

Will this involve crank-triggering for the ignition?
Are base-maps for this setup available here on the forum, or will I have to start from scratch?

Yes, but you need crank-trigger for any sort of EFI so that point is moot (except digi-WUR which is nice on 930 CIS but somewhat of precey overkill on SC)

You don't need cam trigger though as you run waste-fire with EDIS. There are base maps for 3.2 engines available, but you will need to enter them into MS-II trough MegaTune.

[beepbeep]

Originally Posted by pjo046

If I buy a 3.2-intake complete with injectors, can those injectors be used with MS-II?

I am not the most skilled when it comes to wiring diagrams, etc, but I can of course learn. How hard is it to install the MS-II system? Can it be done in a weekend? Is it absolutely necessary with dyno-tuning, or can it be achieved on the road?

Yes. MS-II (fully stocked) will trigger low-Z or high-Z injectors. Wit other words, it can be used with stock 3.2 injectors or any other injectors you install, be it high- or low-impedance. It can even control ignition trough dizzy, if EDIS is not your cup of tea.

[sjf911]

Originally Posted by pjo046

Hmm. I am getting more and more convinced. :-) But is the Bitz kit really worth it, versus just buying a MS-II and using the stock 3.2 fuel rail but with new injectors? Do one have to take the engine out in order to install all the sensors, or is it doable with the engine still in the car?

If I go ahead with this, could I borrow your map as a starting point?

I did mine from scratch in combination with a top-end rebuild so the engine was out. The 3.2 intake ports are different from the CIS heads and ideally your ports should be shaped to match. I used 3.2 heads in combination with a 3.2 intake to avoid it but this does increase your cost significantly. If all you want is EFI +/- ignition now, the Bitz kit is your least expensive and quickest route with the fewest headaches.
I had planned from the beginning to go the turbo route so I wanted MS-II and a 3.2 intake with plans on upgrading to MS-3 so I installed a cam sensor and the 3.2 heads gave me the benefit of a stock cylinder head temperature fitting.

[gsmith660]

Originally Posted by pjo046

Hmm. I am getting more and more convinced. :-) But is the Bitz kit really worth it, versus just buying a MS-II and using the stock 3.2 fuel rail but with new injectors? Do one have to take the engine out in order to install all the sensors, or is it doable with the engine still in the car?

If I go ahead with this, could I borrow your map as a starting point?

The bitz kit is a complete kit minus the injectors and regulator if you are going to use a wide band O2 then you can have him remove the narrow band from the kit and remove the cost I had him keep some things I didn't need and the kit cost me 1308. You dont have to remove the motor if you use the 3.2 intake you can prepare it on the bench w/ the injectors and rails and some of the hose then take off your old stuff and bolt on the new stuff. What motor do you have? there are mods needed to be made to some motors to fit the 3.2 intake I had to open up the ijector area on my 2.7 to get a clear spray path for the injectors but some motors are bolt on. That 500 for the MS-2 is probably just the ECU and the basic wiring harness I dont know you still need rails and other parts, I am not sure if the stock 3.2 rails will bolt on top of the accel injectors summit might be able to answer that question. I looked at all angles and the bitz kit was the best choice for me and what I wanted to do.

[gsmith660]

Originally Posted by sjf911

I did mine from scratch in combination with a top-end rebuild so the engine was out. The 3.2 intake ports are different from the CIS heads and ideally your ports should be shaped to match. I used 3.2 heads in combination with a 3.2 intake to avoid it but this does increase your cost significantly. If all you want is EFI +/- ignition now, the Bitz kit is your least expensive and quickest route with the fewest headaches.
I had planned from the beginning to go the turbo route so I wanted MS-II and a 3.2 intake with plans on upgrading to MS-3 so I installed a cam sensor and the 3.2 heads gave me the benefit of a stock cylinder head temperature fitting.

Got any pics of that cam sensor who knows I might change my mind and go the MS-3 route later you know me change my mind on a whim.

[pjo046]

My engine is a Euro 3.0 Carrera. Code 930-02.
I guess it will be cheaper with the Bitz-kit and cis-manifold, than buying a 3.2 manifold and convert. But will the difference in power be big, using cis-manifold compared with the 3.2 manifold? Given that I stay naturally aspirated. And is it only MS-I that is available with the Bitz kit, thus it's not as good as the MS-II?

[James Brown]

you can also get a Megajolt stand-alone igniter for a EDIS system. Rothsport-racing has CNC pulleys in 36-1 for around $100, nice the MJ controller is around $160. Rock solid ignition and totally tunable

[gsmith660]

Originally Posted by pjo046

My engine is a Euro 3.0 Carrera. Code 930-02.
I guess it will be cheaper with the Bitz-kit and cis-manifold, than buying a 3.2 manifold and convert. But will the difference in power be big, using cis-manifold compared with the 3.2 manifold? Given that I stay naturally aspirated. And is it only MS-I that is available with the Bitz kit, thus it's not as good as the MS-II?

Both are good the difference between MS-1 and MS-2 are versitility and features you can do a conversion where you cut away all the unused portion of the airbox and free up some room the hp gains are posted on the bitz site I believe the 3.2 manifold is bolt on unless you have the small port 3.0 and the ECU will come programed for your motor you could do the megajolt route and thus not need to update the firmware and retain all of Tony's support once you go msns extra his support pretty much ends but there are other guys on the yahoo group that will help out me included.

[sjf911]

Originally Posted by gsmith660

Got any pics of that cam sensor who knows I might change my mind and go the MS-3 route later you know me change my mind on a whim.

Here is a pic of the cam sensor which is from Clewett. The white wire is the 3.2 CHT.

[gsmith660]

Thanks

[Scott R]

Originally Posted by gsmith660

Both are good the difference between MS-1 and MS-2 are versitility and features you can do a conversion where you cut away all the unused portion of the airbox and free up some room the hp gains are posted on the bitz site I believe the 3.2 manifold is bolt on unless you have the small port 3.0 and the ECU will come programed for your motor you could do the megajolt route and thus not need to update the firmware and retain all of Tony's support once you go msns extra his support pretty much ends but there are other guys on the yahoo group that will help out me included.

I've been down this road, and from all the information I gathered the 3.0L in any years needs to be machined to accept the 3.2L runner and injector. I've seen the two heads together on a bench and the injector boss is different.