Best TT/DE investment.

[911st]

I just got back from a great day of TT/DE and am wondering what my next change will be to make my car faster.

I have been taking an incrimental approach and the more track time I get the more I think HP is not the goal and a lot of the fancy goodies out there are in many cases not going to make much differance except in my wallet.

I am still on a steep learning curve but HP dose not seem to be what makes a car fast for a DE/TT. My car is mostly a stock car and I am supprized when a new 997TT or GT3 has to let me by. Skill, cornering & braking seem much more relivant to speed.

My best investments to date:

Track time with and without an instructor.

Castor SPF brake fluid. No more soft pedal, high wet bolling dose not seem to need for bleading before events.

Sport alignment and corner ballance with as much front and rear neg camber as possable. Would include reading the tire including looking at the wear patterns and temps.

Tires/wheels. Just traded up to 205/245 Michelin Pilot Sport Cups on 7&9" rims. This alone took 7 (2:22 v 2:15) sec off my lap times over 7&8 205/225 Dunlop Z1's which is a great tire.

What should I try next?

I think I need to steep up from a sport pad (PBR Ceramic) to a track pad. I alwas have braking, just seem to have issue with pad transfer creating shuter.

Sway. I am getting the tires to work well but I think I need to reduce sway so they can operate closer to an ideal angle to the track.

Brake ballance. I am wonderinig if I can get the rear brakes to do more of the work.

Front neg camber. I think I am up to -1.8 deg but with the amount of sway and seeing that the outside of the front tire is doing much of the work, it seems I need more neg camber. However, I am not really pushing in any way. I guess I could just live with the tire wear.

Besides driver skill, what mod might I want to concider next that may have a significant effect on speed potental?

My car is mostly stock 86 3.2 w LSD, no spoilers.

[tonythetarga]

Well spoilers will make a difference. The best thing to sort out is suspension.
For me, I removed the rubber bushings from the front and went with monoball shock mounts, a strut brace and poly bronze front a-arm bushings, bigger t-bars and new rubber spring plate bushings. I revalved my bilsteins to match the t-bars and that package works well for me. The problem is that you want to make changes to the system and not just the front or rear (one at a time) as that puts the cars handling balance a bit out of whack.
You might just get more seat time first and try a more aggressive track pad like a Pagid yellow.
sounds like you're having fun though.

[Steveinatlanta]

3699 posts?

Racing stripes?

I read some of your posts, you're a bright guy. Spoilers make a difference on the track. exhaust is one of the only real horsepower boosts. Get someone really very knowledgeable (a real race car shop) and get the suspension done all at once. Painfully expensive, but way too many variables. Poly bronze bushings, 23 / 32 torsion bars, billstens to match, strut brace, harness bar, seats, hoosiers. Then start over and buy a race car.

[KTL]

Keith,

Now that you're going faster and want more, get the safety in order if you don't have it already. A roll bar and a seat with harnesses will keep you connected to the car and help the feedback process.

Definitely get some true race pads. Don't mess around with a combination pad. The track favorites seem to be Hawk HT-10, Peformance Friction PF97, Pagid Yellow, Porterfield R4, Carbotech, ..... the list goes on. Most any carbon kevlar pad is going to treat you right. You'll find with the race pads that you won't be looking for more rear bias. The Carrera brakes have pretty good bias as is. I suggest some measure of cooling to make your pads last as best as you can. The spendy Castrol SRF will ward off the heat from boiling your fluid, but it doesn't stop it from attacking your pads, rotors and caliper seals.

I know the general rule of thumb is to stick with stock and "master" it before upgrading. But knowing that the stock 911 suspension allows a lot of compliance, it's not a bad idea to install stiffer springs, to keep the car more composed. Granted, the limits of the car become more touchy or less forgiving, but stiffening up the suspension will do a lot of the things you desire- maintain better camber/tire contact and reduce roll. Less roll is going to let you take better advantage of your alignment settings and it also will save your tires.

Nonetheless, a stock car with a good alignment & lowering can be fast. It just requires a lot more input from the driver to get it to do what you want. Again, the problem is all that pitch and roll by the car takes it's toll. Sway bar mounts can break, tires get heavily abused, shocks work hard to dampen all that movement. Another solution therefore is to pare some weight from the car, which I believe you've already done?

Forget horsepower. That should be the last choice IMO. The dollar per HP in these engines is so high, it's just not that beneficial if you're on a tight budget. I agree with the stiffer spring recommendation if you're not willing to go on a major weight loss diet. Fresh bushings and springs make a world of difference in the feel of the car and that helps build confidence to go faster, to take advantage of the gains the springs will give you.

[Jack Olsen]

Instruction gives the best bang for the buck, hands down. But it takes time and guys get impatient.

Tires are the biggest no-skill-all-money improvement. It's like bribing the timekeeper to lower your numbers.

Suspension is where you want to work on the car. It's a bargain compared to tires, and it actually makes for a permanently faster car (as opposed to simply getting 'faster tires,' which are a modification you've got to throw away when they're worn through).

[aston@ultrasw.c]

Originally Posted by Jack Olsen

It's like bribing the timekeeper to lower your numbers.

I was in a similar position a year ago: brakes + cage + seats = killing tires.

My instructor took me for a spin in a 911 with all the suspension mods listed above.

The difference was amazing, pitch/roll virtually elininated. The car felt very planted and induced great confidence.

So I did bushings, 23/31, camber plates etc.....car was a little better but not great. Then I worked on tuning the suspension settings, corner balance, tire temps and now the car runs great.

I'm almost ready for the next step!

[JP911]

Definitely suspension, but removing weight from the car makes for a cheap (free) and easy improvement.

[burgermeister]

Originally Posted by Jack Olsen

Instruction gives the best bang for the buck, hands down. But it takes time and guys get impatient.

You forgot to mention it's the most fun investment as well ... I'd rather drive than wrench most any day.

[ChkbookMechanic]

The only horsepower mods I've done to my car are the SW chip and a M&K premuffler. Just about all my mods on the car have gone into the suspension and roll cage / seats / harnesses.

The suspension is by far the best place to help make your car go faster around the track (other than practicing) in my opinion. I've got a fairly track-biased suspension setup and love it (even on the street!) but I know it isn't for everyone.

Brake pads would be a good start as would more aggressive torsion bars and shocks. If you get going too fast; a roll cage, seats and harnesses are a great investment too.

[911st]

All great info guys. Thank you so far.

I am still a heavy car being mostly stock, almost 3k w me in it. I also sway and dip big time. I have to think ahead on braking and turn in much earlier than I thought.

There is another TT/DE in about a month and I only need probably less than a second to tie the class record. I did get under it for two laps during practice but could not make it happen when it counted. Not a big deal and do not think I will not get any trophies but it is a fun point of reference.

Getting my tire pressures right seems to make about a 2 sec swing (36 - 39 on new MPSC's) but not sure.

I think I am the biggest factor, there seems to be a bunch of places where I am leaving a bunch of time on the table.

I will get on the track pads and will install my 964/993 air deflectors. Do not expect to stop much faster but should help my confidence and keep the pad deposits from happening.

The other thing that might help but not sure I want to go to the expense is to add more neg camber. Again, I am running a very stock set up with about -1.75 front & -2.5 rear camber. After the first few runs on my new tires it was clear that the outside of the tires were getting hotter than the inner part. A little more air put some heat into the center but I lost time. I know a stiffer suspension will help this.

I am running Thunderhill that I know Jack runs as I have used one of his vid's and one from the Toyo cup's to try to learn the track. My good corners seem to be3,4,5,8,9 and into the front and back straight. The end of the back straight is still a little rough. I do not want to get a big head as I am still running in the lower of three speed potential groups.

I love this stuff.

All help is appreciated.

[ted]

Check where you plan to track it for PCA AX/TT classification points.

Ditto get an awesome full feed back race seat with 5 points and a safe 4 point cage, expand to 6 point with side bars later?
Maybe a Hans or cool shirt and a drivers suit?
5 points and decent chair for an instructor.
You'll need it for student when you become an instructor too.
a chatterbox in car communicator.
Seine or WEVO shifter.
Fireproof driving gloves and a suede steering wheel.
Dead pedal.
Bolt a video camera mount to the roll bar.

If you are an analytical guy you might enjoy interpreting pages of data from your driving.
Get a nice Data system and school yourself.

At the track run softer pads in the back to reduce factory nose dive.
I like Pagid orange in front and black out back.
Agree with your current rim and tire choice.

Some of the stuff above you could hold on to for your next 911 track car.

Adjustable sway bars to play with the balance.

Down that slope, Stiffer suspension is going to pay off with R-rated tires.
2nd set of rims, start lightening and start shopping for trailer & truck.

[tonythetarga]

you mention the 993 deflector plates for brake cooling. Probably saying the obvious but make sure you remove the stone guard backing plates behind the rotors. You will have to pull the calipers and hub (rotor and all) to unbolt the guards.

[911-32]

Can't disagree with anything said so far , but rather than repeating I reckon I can add one or two other things to think about.

If you want to do things in an incremental way and really want to buy some hardware then I would suggest you look at a bigger adjustable rear sway bar. The std 3.2s are a little understeery in stock trim and the bigger rear bar makes the rear end do a little more work, hence moving the balance a little rearwards and giving a slightly sharper turn in. Its not night and day but it is noticeable and gives you a nicer balance. There is some great product around from Elephant, SRP etc, though my humble Weltmeister 22mm bar has proven fine for the last 7 or so years. It also adds some set-up adjustability - though I have never moved mine from the stiffest setting once I got it where I wanted it. Its not a wasted mod later as you can use it with any other suspension upgrades. You may need the stronger sway bar mounts, though my 89 mounts (may be stronger than the early mounts?) have been fine without any change - YMMV.

FWIW, the guys who run MPSCs on SCs/3.2s in the PCGB Classic race series (which is for largely std cars) are aiming for hot pressures closer to 32psi. The Michie tyre techs here recommend you add pressure only if it rains.

Again, FWIW given that my car is a lot stiffer and lighter than yours, at my last track day on MPSCs I found the wear to be almost perfectly even and the temps felt pretty even though warmer on the insides with static cambers around -2.0/-2.75 degs. Just a data point.

If you are still desparate to spend money, one of the most pleasing mods I have done is the monoball top mounts as it takes the stiction out of the struts, lightens the steering but at the same time seems to add feeling. Probably won't make you any faster though. But then, this is DE, not racing - for me anyway, I measure success in smiles not lap times. Actually, timing is totally forbidden at our DEs.

RB

Edit - Reading this after posting, I don't mean to sound in any way critical. I totally get wanting to spend and improve the car even if everyone says improve the driver. Its nice to have an evolving car that gets quicker with you as you learn - thats what I have done for nearly a decade with my 3.2. Also, there will be times when you come up against well driven GT3s et al that you have no chance of keeping up with and then you really start thinking about ways to make the car faster (or what car to buy next)

[911st]

Tony,
Already removed the backing plates, rebuilt all calipers, added SS brake lines, new rotors. Thx for the suggestions.

RB,

Not in a hurry to spend a bunch and am enjoying passing a few big HP and suspension cars with my stock 86 (w chip and bypass) at the moment.

With my stock suspension I am probably swaying a lot more that a prepped car. With my -1.7 & -2.5 camber I am probably short at least a degree to get the tires at the best angle to the track. My best ware was at 38-9. Best stick was during about the second or third lap on the way to 36 hot so there must be something to what you say. There seemed to be a sweet lap on about the second and third that was about a second below my mean. Interesting.

Sounds like if I lower the air pressure a bit, I might pick up some speed. However, I need more neg camber to not beat the out side of the tires I suspect.

So far I guess my goals before the next event are startint to look like: improve me, track pads & cooling, lower hot air pressures, and maybe more neg camber if I can get it. Then suspension over the winter.

Very helpful guys.

The factory lit on the MPSC's suggests pressures hot of 32f, 36r.

[ChkbookMechanic]

On my MPSCs I run 32f and 34r which seems to be a sweet spot for my setup.

I just changed the sway bars on my car and I was amazed at the amount of rolling that was removed from the vehicle when taking corners or changing direction. Of course, it came at the expense of drivability on a daily basis since the car likes to tramline a bit more with the thick sway bars... Not that I'm complaining because I knew what I was getting into.

[KTL]

Richard (911-32) touches on some good tuning points. I too ran MPSC's for a year and found the hot pressures in the low-mid 30's to be best. I think they're a great tire, just kind of touchy when it comes to grip- they can be easy to flat-spot.

Also, the point about an adjustable rear bar is a very good one. After installing the same 22mm Weltmeister adj. bar, I found my car much more agreeable. Stiffening the rear provided just the right amount of roll stiffness to remove some understeer. My confidence in the car increased dramatically because i'm someone who is very bothered/fearful of understeer.

Also, my car used to have 22/29 torsion bars, so you would think I gained a substantial reduction in body roll with the bigger main springs. Not necessarily. See this post from one of Keith's previous questions about suspension changes

Body Roll Comparison 22/29 vs. stock torsions

The cars in that link are my red car with 22/29 and adjustable rear bar vs. the silver car on stock torsions and the same adjustable rear bar. Body roll is just about the same. Point being is you really have to lose some weight, drop the ride height, get some stiff torsion bars and stiffer sway bars. Even then it's still tough to get all the roll out of the car. Here's the same silver car now equipped with 23/30 bars, fiberglass bumpers, no A/C, so it's somewhat light. Still has a fair amount of roll going on as you can see...

[Mahler9th]

An interesting thread to be sure. I have been at this since 1987 and this has come up frequently with people I meet that are just getting started... including many of my students.

Here are some thoughts:

1. Not really the car but....

Keep the PCA/GGR as your home base for developing your skills and increasing your experience. The PCA/GGR has a rich history and is the group most culturally focused on going faster, pretty consistently. Venturing out and running with other groups like other PCA regions, Trackmasters, NCRC and others is a great supplement, but the PCA/GGR has the most consistent focus on going faster from a cultural standpoint. Hanging around at these events with others focused on the craft, including instructors can help a lot. Instead of talking about doo-dads and video games, and "I passed a GT3," discussions about subtleties and nuances can go a long way. The "how and the why." And putting yourself on a path to become an instructor can help.

2. 911s have been used for this activity for a long time. There are generally no new major developments that make the cars go faster. Sure there are nice parts and so on, but many of them only add capability to the car in very small increments... small fractions of tenths per $100 or $1000. I still have Pano and Excellence mags that go back to the mid-80's, and the stuff they were doing then still makes sense now. I always recommend that folks familiarize themselves with this old school stuff as a baseline. You don't need Motons or JRZs to run up front, old school Bilsteins are good enough...

3. Presuming 1, and 2, you will likely find a recipe for suspension changes that provides the best bang for the buck, along with a set of wheels and sticky dot tires that are relatively inexpensive and longlasting. Using street tires for 6-7 events a year plus street driving may be more expensive then getting a dedicated wheel and sticky tire set up.

4. Because these cars have been around for so long, there are myriad used performance parts available as folks upgrade. Keeping an eye on this flow can save money. For example, if you decide that an adjustable rear sway bar is on your path, you have a lot of choices for new. But did you ever consider calling a place like Partsheaven to see if they happen to have a used Weltmeister laying around? There was one there the last time I visited. You buy it, install it, use it, and later decide you don't need an adjustable, or a bar at all (some of our top PRC GT cars do not run a rear bar-- weight), you can sell this used Weltmeister for almost what you paid for it.

5. You have to carefully consider the rules and requirements regarding seats, belts and so on. I recommend a long term view. Your safety, and a passenger's safety are considerations beyond simply "requirements." Seats and belts do allow you to go faster than stock set-ups. This is not arguable.

6. Consider getting video into your car as soon as possible. Wide enough FOV to see your hands... a red light in the dash that comes on with the brakes. The video is not for bragging rites on You Tube... it is study material.

If I lived where you seem to live, I'd work with an established "old school and experienced" provider, and pick changes that make the most bang for the buck. I live in Fremont, and don't use a shop per se, but I am a strong supporter of an experienced expert that works in Reno, that is very "old school," and has built the fastest cars per dollar in our area during the past 10 years or so. And its not just because many of the cars are light... Most of the cars do not have fancy doo dads... just the things that make a difference.

[Mahler9th]

Oh, and by the way... in my opinion, there is little to be gained from personalized tire temp measurements and such regarding set up. This can be a fun engineering project (better than, say building a ship in a bottle), but the answers have long been known.

[Tom '74 911]

Originally Posted by Mahler9th

. . . the fastest cars per dollar . . . not just because many of the cars are light... Most of the cars do not have fancy doo dads... just the things that make a difference.

That's the trick right there - doing just the things that make a difference. Where could a guy get a hold of that list of things to do? : )

[Mahler9th]

Go back and read some of the old school Excellence and Pano articles. Hang out at the track at PCA and PRC events and study the cars carefully. For example, someone here mentioned polybronze bushings. They are a great product I am sure. But you don't need them to go faster. Some of the fastest 911 race cars I know of have Weltmeister-style control and trailing arm bushings. I have them in my car.

Get friendly with some of the old school folks and folks with high-level amateur aand/or pro racing experience from back in the 70's and 80's that are still around. A few post on the BBs from time to time. The vast majority do not.