The heck with E10, lets go to E20!

[HarryD]

GothingNC posted this in another thread but I thought it deserves it's own thread.

Originally Posted by GothingNC

Now we may have E20

E20 is just fine for fuel pumps, says Minnesota Ag Department — Autoblog Green

The Center, which operates out of Minnesota State University, Mankato, just released a study that found an E20 blend "causes no significant change in performance of automotive fuel systems." This study, the fourth E20 project the Center has conducted, was all about the fuel pumps and sending units. Eight models of fuel pumps were run for 4,000 models on three different fuels (pure gasoline, E10 and E20).

Another disingenuous report! Interesting how each of these supporters do not look at the whole system but only cherry picked issues.

Note the highlighted text. Great, my fuel pump and level gauge will live!

What about my loss in performance due to the lowered energy content of a gallon of fuel (i.e. worse gas mileage). The strain this fuel will put on my overburdened fuel manangement system which will need to richen the mixture even more to operate at stiochiometric ratios. How will the resultant lean running impact my catalyst?

It is interesting to note what was omitted or overlooked in this research. They did not say E20 has no or postive impact to overall perfomance nor it's impact to anything OTHER than fuel pumps and level gauges. Why did they not factor in the loss in performace due to the changed A/F Ratio? How E20 afftect tailpipe emissions.

10% and 15% Alchohol in our gasoline

[RWebb]

...says Minnesota Ag Department

maybe that has something to do with it?

[HarryD]

Randy,

I have no idea why the Minnesota SILVER Department would care. Maybe we will need their "Silver" to make our cars run better?

[brads911sc]

From the other post --

the question is not whether we can buy ethanol free fuel. there are almost none. the total list represents less than 1% of the gas stations in Houston alone. There are virtually no stations in the 5 largest Texas cities and we are the oil refinery capital of the world. That is because E10 is federally mandated. I suspect that if you test most of those stations on that list you will fine ethanol. despite the stickers on the pump. is marathon really manufacturing ethanol free fuel for your one small station? the marathon gas in houston absolutely has ethanol.. and its refined here. not likely your small station has a deal for ethanol free fuel. its much more likely the pump is labeled wrong. id love to see some test results.

the real question to be addressed is what we need to do to our cars to preserve them and allow them to run properly.
Jaime is already instructing those with MS EFI to alter the AFR and VE tables to accomodate. I think he multiplied his AFR tables by .94 and his VE tables by 1.06.
On MFI, CIS, Motronic systems it may be good to think through and test likely scenarios.
I think the old AFR targets of 14.7 go out the window and targets in the low 13's become likely. example, my car runs like crap at idle at wideband control of 14.7. I am running 12.8-13.2 and have a smooth idle. As soon as i go north of 13.5 i get severe lean symptoms. If we use our old AFR targets we will be extreme lean at higher RPM's. (I run Chevron 92)
I have a hotter cam so not ready to say its all fuel related... but the AFR/VE tables have to be impacted.

So rather than hand wringing... i would have the pros do some testing to see what optimal AFR/VE tables / values look like for Gas, Vs E10, vs E15, Vs E20, etc. We have a few years before the oil companies could even do E20... so no need to panic...
__________________

[MichiganMike]

I think we need some pros that live in the midwest area, specifically Minnesota / Wisconsin / Nebraska. That is where you can find the different fuels much easier. I would be interested to see what comes about from it, if someone is willing to take it on!

[spuggy]

Originally Posted by HarryD

The strain this fuel will put on my overburdened fuel manangement system which will need to richen the mixture even more to operate at stiochiometric ratios.

According to Wikipedia, the stiochiometric ratio for E10 is not the same as for gas - but guess what your Lambda circuit is trying to hit? Right. 14.7:1 - stoichiometric for gasoline. Which is lean for E10.

For E85, it's 9.7:1. That's stioch, that's not "max power rich", which is somewhere in the 6's, I think...

[Wil Ferch]

Hmmm...not trying to give credence to the state claims.....but there is (at least) a 7 position fuel switch on the backside of the DME for 3.2 cars.....some settings only change the fuel richness condition ( applicable here)...or.... ignition timing....or both.

I hate the spin-doctors.... of any stripe !!!...on any topic.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

This will really end up creating a fuel blend that's 20% ethanol, 20% water and 60% low-grade, low-octane crap gasoline.

Wonderful.

I'm definitely building a home ethanol extractor now and adding xylene to the resulting low-grade, low-octane crap gas, even if it is a PITA. I'm serious.

The downside that (in addition to being a pain and arguably a little dangerous) is it'll end up costing probably $6-or-so a gallon.

Or I suppose I can rip the cats and O2 sensors off my cars and go fill up with CAM2 which is running about $7.50 a gallon right now without the aggrivation...

Stupid government meddling.

[piggdekk]

Originally Posted by spuggy

According to Wikipedia, the stiochiometric ratio for E10 is not the same as for gas - but guess what your Lambda circuit is trying to hit? Right. 14.7:1 - stoichiometric for gasoline. Which is lean for E10.

For E85, it's 9.7:1. That's stioch, that's not "max power rich", which is somewhere in the 6's, I think...

The lambda doesn't try to hit 14.7 ratio, it tries to minimize 02 in the exhaust. Since E10 (or E20) require less oxygen to burn the lambda will see the excess oxygen in the exhaust and enrich the mixture to hit the o2 target. So it is not a big deal for close loop operation, but when the car is running open loop (acceleration, for example), the fuel managment map will be lean.
luca

[javadog]

Doesn't ethanol start ro separate from a blend, at around a 17% concentration?

JR

[JeremyD]

Originally Posted by javadog

Doesn't ethanol start ro separate from a blend, at around a 17% concentration?

JR

Or when stored. All these tests are done on a fresh supply of gasoline. Many of the issues with Ethanol comes out after it's been stored and goes through "phase separation"

That's when it does it's most damage. Especially to engines that are not run all the time (like your boat, like your mower, like your weedeater)

We just need to hire better lobbyists - the farm lobbyists are kicking our crotch.

[brads911sc]

It does on a wideband setup. My VE tables are directly altered by the AFR targets i enter. Anyone who has converted from a closed loop system to a wideband system will have issues...

edit... if they are running megatune or tuner studio...

Originally Posted by piggdekk

The lambda doesn't try to hit 14.7 ratio, it tries to minimize 02 in the exhaust. Since E10 (or E20) require less oxygen to burn the lambda will see the excess oxygen in the exhaust and enrich the mixture to hit the o2 target. So it is not a big deal for close loop operation, but when the car is running open loop (acceleration, for example), the fuel managment map will be lean.
luca

[HarryD]

More interesting reading on Exx blends: Common ethanol fuel mixtures - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[rluciano]

Originally Posted by brads911sc

It does on a wideband setup. My VE tables are directly altered by the AFR targets i enter. Anyone who has converted from a closed loop system to a wideband system will have issues...

I don't think you are right here. Your wideband sensor is a lambda sensor. It does not sense AFR. In fact many of the external wideband sensors ask you to tell the sensor your fuel before it displays AFR.

I have my MoTeC set to display lambda. 1.00 will be stoichiometric whether I run E0, E10 or E85. I only allow my closed loop lambda to add or subtract 10% of the fuel in my base tables; so E85 would fail. But the target is lambda not AFR. The same is probably true for your setup unless you are running a 4 gas analyzer.

[brads911sc]

You are not correct. Maybe yours is set up differently? Perhaps I should have limited those statements to Megatune or Tuner Studio.

I use tuner studio ve analyze connected to the innovate LC1 wideband. check it out.. its a slick set up. You enter your target AFR, drive and it changes the VE table. Its actually quite nice... unless you enter the wrong AFR.... it doesnt tune AFR based on VE table changes. It works soley off the AFR in one direction.. if you change the VE manually, you are on your own... of course you start with a basline AFR/VE that is based on engine/injectors/etc characteristics.

http://www.tunerstudio.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5&Itemid=13#veAnalyze

megatune has the same feature but it isnt as user friendly.

Jaime recommended lowering the AFR's and increasing the VE table values due specifically to Ethanol in the fuel so that we dont get lean results. With tuner studio you only need to change the AFR value and it will change the VE table for you. i am not a programmer and am new to EFI tuning.. so I dont claim to be an expert... I rely on people like Jaime Novak who I consider expert in MS tuning... maybe i use the wrong terminology... but i do know that i tuned my car to where it is driving great... and the ONLY values I needed to alter as part of my tuning are the target AFR numbers.

Originally Posted by rluciano

I don't think you are right here. Your wideband sensor is a lambda sensor. It does not sense AFR. In fact many of the external wideband sensors ask you to tell the sensor your fuel before it displays AFR.

I have my MoTeC set to display lambda. 1.00 will be stoichiometric whether I run E0, E10 or E85. I only allow my closed loop lambda to add or subtract 10% of the fuel in my base tables; so E85 would fail. But the target is lambda not AFR. The same is probably true for your setup unless you are running a 4 gas analyzer.

[turbobrat930]

This response is about using E-85 and/or E-95.... Not the use of the 15% mixture...

I know that we are not talking about turbo or supercharged engines here. BUT, I am just finishing my build, and will be mostly running E-85 fuel. Since I have an aftermarket ECU, I can tune for it. I have also incorporated a E-85 sensor, so if I run a mixture of pump gas and E-85 or race fuel, and my ECu will automatically change the fuel and ignition maps to suit.

For a forced induction engine, E-85 and even moreso E-95 is an excellent fuel to use. It is a higher octane, easy to tune with, very clean burning, and also cools the Fuel/ Air charge. Lower EGT's are also a benefit.

With a stock engine management system, it is hard to extract more power without really getting into things... Possibly by buying a chip, or altering the ignition ( more advanced timing).

With an aftermarket ECU, it is EXTREMELY easy to alter the fuel and ignition maps. Fuel availability is also an issue ( E-85 or E-95.....) Here in the city where I live, within 15 miles, I have 8 different gas stations that carry E-85, and a fuel depot that I can get E-95 as well.

As far as not producing good power from E-85. I will expect to get around 700 crank HP while using E-85. A good local friend of mine runs E-85 in his twin turbo small block.... Try 2100 HP...at the wheels. So, yes, there is power to be had.

Usually it takes about 30% more fuel to get the same power as pump gas (using E-85). So, the use of the fuel to get better MPG, is not going to happen. Yes, if you leave the fuel sit for awhile, there is a possibility for water seperation, so there is a chance of water damage, corrosion, etc... But, if you are going to use the fuel, you think about this ahead of time.

I know this post was about E-10, E-15, or E-20, with a mixture of gsoline at the pumps. But like it or not, I think that the E-10 and more later is here to stay.

I think that maybe someone should come up with a piggy back module to have along with your stock engine computer, to use the fuels and extract more power and the benefits of said fuel (talking about E-20 or such)....

[rluciano]

Brad,


Tell me what device is plugged into your MS to give it AFRs. I bet it is really a lambda not AFR. see:Pelican Parts Technical BBS - Powered by vBulletin

I know that target AFRs would change but I bet that the software really has a target lambda that it is displaying as an AFR, which usually defaults to E0 gasoline.

See what Innovate does:



If this is what Tuner Studio does as well, then fine. It will be displaying incorrect AFRs if it is simply multiplying lambda but then the rest of what you say will make sense.

I know the more ethanol the more fuel I need in my fuel tables but my lambda target does not change and lambda is what the sensor measures. Why does Bosch call it "lambda sond"? Because that is what it is a lambda sensor.

Richard

PS I know and respect Jamie Novak too.

Originally Posted by brads911sc

You are not correct. Maybe yours is set up differently? Perhaps I should have limited those statements to Megatune or Tuner Studio.

I use tuner studio connected to the innovate LC1 wideband. check it out.. its a slick set up. You enter your target AFR, drive and it changes the VE table. Its actually quite nice... unless you enter the wrong AFR.... it doesnt tune AFR based on VE table changes. It works soley off the AFR in one direction.. if you change the VE manually, you are on your own... of course you start with a basline AFR/VE that is based on engine/injectors/etc characteristics.

EFI Analytics TunerStudio

megatune has the same feature but it isnt as user friendly.

Jaime recommended lowering the AFR's and increasing the VE table values due specifically to Ethanol in the fuel so that we dont get lean results. With tuner studio you only need to chage the AFR value and it will increase the VE table for you. i am not a programmer and am new to EFI tuning.. so I dont claim to be an expert... I rely on people like Jaime Novak who I consider expert in MS tuning... maybe i use the wrong terminology... but i do know that i tuned my car to where it is driving great... and the ONLY values I needed to alter as part of my tuning are the target AFR numbers.

[brads911sc]

I am sure that behind the friendly user interface (for novices like me), you are absolutely correct.

I have never looked at Innovates software. Nor have i dug into the lambda values within TunerStudio. There is a screen where you choose whether you want to see values as Lambda vs AFR. So a conversion is being done.

My only real point is that if guys are tuning based on AFR (because that is how the user interface is built) and they keep it at the 14.7 target, and then introduce ethanol, that they will be running lean throughout the powerband. How this all translates into Lambda values vs VE/Fuel tables vs AFR would change based on the Ethanol content. I suppose that E10 would probably have a lambda value of .90 or some variation like that.

When i set my AFR target to 14.7 my car runs like *****.

My other point, is that rather than trying to find ethanol free fuel... we should put our efforts into learning the impacts this has and developing solutions. Example, I would rather that TunerStudio allowed me to choose E10, E15, E20 and made corrections accordingingly to all the tables... rather than every individual out there trying to find the corect "AFR" number as they go because thats the focus of TunerStudio.

If we all tuned off of Lambda and the target was always "1.0" then maybe this is a none issue? I think in an effort to dummy down the tuning interface builders are not focused on Lambda but rather AFR.

Make sense? or am I off base here...?

Originally Posted by rluciano

Brad,


Tell me what device is plugged into your MS to give it AFRs. I bet it is really a lambda not AFR. see:Pelican Parts Technical BBS - Powered by vBulletin

I know that target AFRs would change but I bet that the software really has a target lambda that it is displaying as an AFR, which usually defaults to E0 gasoline.

See what Innovate does:

If this is what Tuner Studio does as well, then fine. It will be displaying incorrect AFRs if it is simply multiplying lambda but then the rest of what you say will make sense.

I know the more ethanol the more fuel I need in my fuel tables but my lambda target does not change and lambda is what the sensor measures. Why does Bosch call it "lambda sond"? Because that is what it is a lambda sensor.

Richard

PS I know and respect Jamie Novak too.

[safe]

Good post Brad.
Ethanol blends are bad ass when it comes to super charging.
For example the Koenigsegg CCXR develops 806 hp on gas and 1018 hp on E85.

There are 2 issues with ethanol blends.
1. You need to richen the mixture on flesystems that can't do it on their own.
2. Some components may not be resistant to ethanol.

But ethanol is GOOD for performance, higher octane, cools the charge better due to more fuel being added and it burns cooler than gasoline.
The last must be very good in an aircooled engine.

[safe]

But the most important thing about ethanol in the gas is that the environmental benefits are questionable AT BEST.

And morally it's disgusting to grow food to turn into fuel when there is a food shortage in the world, or to burn down the rain forests to grow sugar canes.