3.6 Transplant/Detail Question

[kstar]

I think I have a good understanding of the process of transplanting a 3.6 into an early 911 thanks to the board here and at Rennlist and Dr. Timmins' site.

Questions: How is the tach/speedo driven on a '72 911; is it via the gearbox? And if I upgrade to a later AL case 915 w/ 8:31, is the tach/speedo driven via the gearbox or electronically via some other avenue?

Also, Bill Verburg (on the Rennlist board) mentioned replacing the earlier electrical engine compartment console with one from a 964/993 to ease the conversion process; any further thoughts on this from Bill or any of the other 3.6ers?

Once again I have found myself swayed back to the 3.6 side vs. building a 3.2 from a 3.0 case. I really don't want to regret NOT doing the 3.6. My heart and mind tell me to go 3.6 and all you Pelicanites seem to share the same sentiments. The shop that will do the work is suggesting that a 3.0 -> 3.2 is a better route than a 3.6 and that "suggestion" is just not settling right with me.

Thanks again to all of you and Best Regards!

Kurt

[Jack Olsen]

I can totally understand the shop's position. Building an engine from the ground up means they can take responsibility for the finished product working correctly (versus having to apologize for the condition of an unkown engine).

Of course... there's also the matter of a whole lot more labor going into the built engine, which means a whole lot more money going to the shop. I negotiated a flat rate of $1500 for my swap. I don't know of much custom engine work where you can pay that low a figure.

My old tach and speedo worked fine with my swap (although I didn't do the work, so maybe in Timmins' kit was responsible for the tach). With the newer transaxle, I'm going to install an electronic speedo with the needle (and maybe the face) from the old one, so the whole set matches.

[widebody911]

Isn't the tach driven from the ignition?

I hadn't heard the bit about the later console. It's not that big of a deal to swap the pins around to convert the harness, as long as you're very careful.

I think your shop is a) scared of a new procedure; b) thinks they're getting gyped outta lots of labor to do your 3.x->3.y conversion.

[kstar]

Jack:

You make two good points on why this shop may have motivation to sway me from a 3.6 transplant vs. a built 3.2.

The built 3.2 will run just a tad under $20,000 according to my cost estimate. This is a monster 3.2 that should make over 275hp at the crank and includes Andial/Mahle high compression p/c's, GE-60 grind cams, major head work, twin plug heads and crank-fired ignition as well as installing a B&B fender mounted oil cooler with fan. Other details are ARP rod bolts/nuts and 993 head bolts and a balancing of the rotating assembly.

The 3.6 numbers are better and I get more, IMO! Assume $14,312.00 for a Euro '96 993 motor with OBD-1, the complete Timmin's conversion "crate motor" package and all installation costs - throw in the money for the oil cooler install ADD a second fender mounted B&B oil cooler ADD f/r 22/31 tubular torsion bars and I get $18,949.00!!

I could also opt out of the second cooler and add a late AL case 915 8:31 transaxle w/ LSD and end up with a number only marginally higher than the 3.2 engine only option!!!

Timmin's guarantees a dry motor, performs a leak down test and adjusts the valves of the crate motor - he also cleans it up and installs all of the conversion parts before it ships. From what I understand from his site, he offers a 6 month warranty on what he delivers.

Sure seems like the 3.6 conversion as described is a lot more attractive than the built 3.2. Is it as obvious to everyone else that the 3.6 is THE way to go?

I am afraid that the shop may be more interested in the added profits of the built 3.2, but your point about the shop being able to stand being the work (of the 3.2 vs. 3.6) is a valid one that I had not considered.

Thanks for your words . . . and I still have to figure out what the heck drives the tach and the speedo!

Best Regards,

Kurt

[kstar]

. . . I think your shop is a) scared of a new procedure; b) thinks they're getting gyped outta lots of labor to do your 3.x->3.y conversion.

Thom:

I think you are correct! I think I will follow my "gut" this time . . . last time I ignored my "gut" feeling I was bent over without the benefit of a proper lube.

BTW, how is the rebuilt motor running? I am certainly envious of you, Jack, Bill and all of the other 3.6ers!!!!

I hope to join you guys soon . . . .

Best to you,

Kurt

[curtisaa]

Every morning while shaving, practice making the shi@#y grin you'll constantly have on your face blowing by most 3.2 and all 3.0.

[Jack Olsen]

If you've got time for the road trip -- and really, life's too short not to do it, in my opinion -- you might want to consider having Timmins do the labor as well. He does the swaps over the weekend, in some cases, which beats most shops attitude of saving the big jobs for long stretches on slow days. He probably could also do the suspension work. It seems like he's more of an enthusiast than purely a businessman (which is nice).

[Bill Verburg]

Kurt,
The late console isn't necessary it just cleans up the wiring in that area. I insisted on a factory appearing installation. I'll try to post some pics of that area later.

There are some things that are necessary like oil coolers, some things that naturally ought to be done like headers, rebuiling halfshafts, replacing clutch/pp, etc. and some things that are pure gravy like suspension, brakes, trans, and the electrical panel.

Unless you are building a car for a class like RandyWells or are subject to emissions inspections the 3.6 and particularly the 95 993 3.6 is the way to go.


Your #s for the cost of an engine seem high to me . i bought a 1 year old engine in 94 for ~$6500 less the 3 liter which I sold privately net was ~$3500

[T Bird]

Kurt
On a 72 911, the speedometer is connected via cable to a drive unit located in/on the 915 transaxle. The tach recieves its signal from the distributor.

[rfix'n]

Bill,

Dr. Timmins website indicates some additional exhaust work for the '95 993 vs. using say a '94 motor. Do you know what this work is?

Do you feel the '95 motor is ideal because of the hydralic lifters or is there another reason?

thanks in advance.

[kstar]

I know you addressed Bill, but I will chime in here as in the midst of some 3.6 "documentation":

The 95' 993 motors are a good choice because they do not have the OBD-II computers that can be expensive to modify/reprogram. US 993 motors from '96-'98 do have the ODB-II computers. But, the Euro '96-'98 993 motors do not have the OBD-II and can be "chipped" at a reasonable cost.

The '95 993 US motors do not come from the factory with Varioram; the '96-'98 motors for the ROW and US have Varioram. All '95 on 993 motors for standard 993s (not racing) have the hydraulic valve lifters.

There are also other changes regarding the crankshaft, larger intake ports, MAF, etc. for the 993 motors.

Info above gathered from the 3.6 FAQ and other pages at http://www.instant-g.com - Thanks Dr. Timmins!

Take Care!

Kurt

[Bill Verburg]

There are a lot of good things about the 95 993 3.6

• OBD1
• hot wire mass air sensor
• internally balanced crankshaft
• bigger ports
• hyd. lifters(for non racing only)
• stock exhaust is pretty good
• oil filter in both scavange and pressure lines

There are also some negatives

• hyd. lifters
• heater arrangement which is more difficult to plumb than the 964
• unique arrangement of exhaust studs which are not interchangeable with earlier design manifolds on the passenger side

these last 2 issues are referred to by Dr. Timmins. The pattern on the passenger side ex manifold of the 993 is rotated 90 from previous 911 practice. This is not an isssue if the 993 exh. manifolds(or new custom headers such as B&B) and cat are used but then there is more of an issue fabbing a muffler from the cats out(there are no off the shelf solutions here). In addition the heater arrangement of the 993 is very different from the 964 and earlier. This problem can be solved by creative use of SCAT/SKEET tubing for the heater ducting.

[pbs911]

I looked at the issue of which 3.6 is the best candidate for the transfer. I am still torn. For me it will come doen to what motor I can get the best deal on. In general, you can expect to pay between $1-1.5K more for the 95 993 motor. You read Timmons web site so you know the differences in the motor itself. The one difference that does not jump out is the HP bewteen the 95 993 and the earlier 3.6's. On paper it looks like you get more from the 993 motor. But I don't think the internals make for this increase.

I was reading Bruce Andersons the other night. In the engine mod section he discusses the differences in HP between the 95 3.6 and earlier 3.6s. Bruce states that the HP increase was due mostly from the improved exhaust system of the 993. It seems to me that you can't use the OEM 993 exhaust anyways but will be moving to an aftermarket exhaust. So the increase in HP realized from using a 95 993 3.6 instead of an earlier 3.6 is moot. Bruce does state that a SMALL increase in HP was realized by an improved induction system in the 95 3.6.

Just food for thought.

[widebody911]

You can get a good engine from Steve for way less than $14k; he's selling the engine from his BlauCarrera for something in the mid 7's. I would have bought that engine in a heartbeat if I was doing the conversion today.

My rebuilt engine is running like a champ. This sounds strange, but I think it's actually getting stronger over time. It just got it's first oil change last night, and is full of Mobil-1 now.

Dyno Sheet

Originally posted by kurtstarnes
I think you are correct! I think I will follow my "gut" this time . . . last time I ignored my "gut" feeling I was bent over without the benefit of a proper lube.

BTW, how is the rebuilt motor running? I am certainly envious of you, Jack, Bill and all of the other 3.6ers!!!!

[kstar]

Paul:

I think I will use this approach to exhaust/heating if I go the 993 route:

Lose the heater blower motor and then run hoses from the fan to the heat exchangers ( this picture from the Rennsport Systems site here: http://www.rennsportsystems.com/~porsche/engines%203.6-3.8.html )

[kstar]

Sorry - double post!

[kstar]

Here's the pic:

[kstar]

Originally posted by widebody911
You can get a good engine from Steve for way less than $14k; he's selling the engine from his BlauCarrera for something in the mid 7's. I would have bought that engine in a heartbeat if I was doing the conversion today.

My rebuilt engine is running like a champ. This sounds strange, but I think it's actually getting stronger over time. It just got it's first oil change last night, and is full of Mobil-1 now.

Dyno Sheet

Glad to hear you have a healthy, strong motor now!

I have exchanged some email with Steve and as of a couple of weeks ago he had a '96 Euro 993 that he said would be $9750 "crate" style. Add the full conversion kit with all the "trimmings" ($3042) figure 20 hours @ $76 for install (high estimate, IMO - $1520) and I get $14,312.00 installed.

That number is well below the built monster 3.2 that I have been quoted.

The 3.6 motor conversion number grows $2000 when I add oil cooling. So for at the most $16,312.00 for the 3.6 I am "saving" over $3000 by going primo 3.6 vs. monster 3.2 - and getting a lot more bang for my buck!

I could save some money by going the 964 route, but I really want Varioram and those hydraulic lifters . . . and as close to 300hp as I can get.

Best to you,

Kurt

[widebody911]

Here's my heater setup. I'm scheming on how I cna fab a fiberglass Cup heater tube.

[widebody911]

Originally posted by kurtstarnes

[...]
and I get $14,312.00 installed.

Ah - I thought that was $14k plus the gravy, stuffing, and cranberry sauce.

The 3.6 motor conversion number grows $2000 when I add oil cooling.

Where does the $2000 number come from? Ah - you don't have a front cooler on the beastie now? I need to replace one of my hard lines, and was quoted $200 for the set by an expensive local junkyard. Shop around, you could get the whole setup fairly cheep if you do some hunting. You'll need a thermostat, the hard lines, the cooler, and the lines from the engine & tank to the cooler.

FWIW, either of your choices are going to need the bigger cooler, you just didn't know it yet.

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