Torsion Bar Choices

[theclaw]

I've been reading a bunch of the suspension threads and was curious about a few things. First, I can tell that sway bar combo's are about as personal and diverse as your choice of oil. However, I haven't found much commentary on the changes from one combo to the other effect the handling of the car.

I have a near stock '84 Carrera with 18.8m Front and 24.1m Rear. I've read the Pelican Tech article that says the common combo's are,

21/26......21/27
22/27......22/28
23/29......23/30

A search shows some choices other Pelican's have made,

dgmark........22/29
TROG...........21/28
Winders........22/31
Geneman......21/32
ToddM..........22/28, street aggressive
ToddM..........21/27, street only
Rattlsnak......23/31, "perfect"
P-Dawger......22/29


I'm looking to track my car more than street it. I have to drive it back and forth to DE's but I've found neither the wife nor kids have a whole lot of interest in it so I'm not worried about comfort except for the road trip to/from the track. I have a few DEs under my belt but have a lot to learn.

So what do you all think.....

Go more aggressive and gain experience into it?

What happens to the handling when you go from 22/27 to 22/29? What happens if you do a medium front (22) but very still rear (31 or 32)?

Is something like 23/29 or 23/31 that harsh on the street and not recommended?

How does all this effect your choice of sways? Shock valving?

[Flieger]

Stiffer in back = more tendancy towards oversteer or less understeer depending on how you look at it.

This is a very general rule, however, and is very much affected by antiroll bars, roll center heights, and the camber you run (and the tires).

For a race car I would say keep a similar balance to the 23/30.

[Chuck Moreland]

23/31 will be great for your track days. It's a bit much for the street but if you are just going back and forth to the track you may find this acceptable.

22/29 is much more streetable and fine for DEs. But if you get serious about going fast at the track, you will want stiffer.

In all cases you want shocks custom valved to match, or the ride and performance will suffer.

[wildcat077]

Like Chuck says ... i started with 22/29 two years ago, then i had to call Chuck again this Summer and order some Sanders 23/31 !

Not all that bad for the street as i've done some 500+ km road trips and all was good,even with the Sparco seats

Cheers !
Phil

[IROC]

Chuck is right. I've had 22/29s for 15+ years and they are fine on the street (maybe a little stiff on bad roads), but I am always wanting more stiffness on the track. Matching the shock valving is critical, too.

For a relatively heavy "near stock" Carrera (as you mention), I would go with 22/29s minimum and probably 23/30s or 31s.

[ivangene]

yup, I was worried 23/30 would be "too much" because I drive to work everyday and have sparco evo seats - NOPE - LOOOOOVE IT !!

shocks are your friend, i chose Koni external adjustable which means I can make the car very compliant for rough expansion joints and pot holes, then dial it up and have a hoot at the track...

[wildcat077]

I think for 87-89 G50 cars the 23/31 setup would be more appropriate as they are a little more rear weight challenged than the 915 equipped cars but on the street you won't really notice the difference.
I can't tell between my previous 29's and my current 31 's ... on the track ,it's another story !

Cheers !
Phil

[theclaw]

Originally Posted by Chuck Moreland

23/31 will be great for your track days. It's a bit much for the street but if you are just going back and forth to the track you may find this acceptable.

22/29 is much more streetable and fine for DEs. But if you get serious about going fast at the track, you will want stiffer.

In all cases you want shocks custom valved to match, or the ride and performance will suffer.

This is what it boils down to. Leaning toward 23/30 or 31

[GaryR]

If you are going to lighten the car (for the track I would assume so) I would do 22/28 and add some stout Smart Racing or Elephant sways to keep her flat in the corners. It wasn't so long ago that 22/28 was the hot setup for racing and people did quite well with them! That is exactly what I am doing with my hot rod. My race car on the other hand runs 35/24..

[theclaw]

Originally Posted by douglabeula

It's a bit much for the street but if you are just going back and forth to the track you may find this acceptable.

Can't say there won't be ANY street driving. There will be the proper sways in there too. I'm just seeing what consensus is on sizing.

[slimlynn1]

Originally Posted by GaryR

If you are going to lighten the car (for the track I would assume so) I would do 22/28 and add some stout Smart Racing or Elephant sways to keep her flat in the corners. It wasn't so long ago that 22/28 was the hot setup for racing and people did quite well with them! That is exactly what I am doing with my hot rod. My race car on the other hand runs 35/24..

Gary, where did you get the 24/35 torsion bars and what brand are they?

[GaryR]

Originally Posted by slimlynn1

Gary, where did you get the 24/35 torsion bars and what brand are they?

Saunders hollow and IIRC it was from Chuck at Elephant Racing.. I believe you can cram 36's in but they weren't in stock at the time.

[175K911]

Originally Posted by GaryR

Saunders hollow and IIRC it was from Chuck at Elephant Racing.. I believe you can cram 36's in but they weren't in stock at the time.

Exactly. That's where I got the 24mm hollow fronts that I'm selling

[GaryR]

Originally Posted by 175K911

Exactly. That's where I got the 24mm hollow fronts that I'm selling

There ya go Tim, fronts all set!

[ivangene]

DO IT :evilgrin:

[175K911]

Originally Posted by GaryR

There ya go Tim, fronts all set!

I'm doing double duty on this thread.

Helping someone find 24mm front torsion bars, and........

Original poster is a neighbor of mine. Which ever way he goes I'll probably be helping him with the conversion. At least he has a heated garage with a lift. And a couple of really sweet Ducatis

[theclaw]

Originally Posted by 175K911

I'm doing double duty on this thread.

Helping someone find 24mm front torsion bars, and........

Original poster is a neighbor of mine. Which ever way he goes I'll probably be helping him with the conversion. At least he has a heated garage with a lift. And a couple of really sweet Ducatis

Don't worry Ed. We'll keep you busy all winter if you want!

I'm going with the setup dgmark ia selling but need to either get some Boge struts or revalve my bilsteins if that's possible. Have to see exactly what I have.

[KTL]

Had 22/29 with Bilstein HD front, Sport rear on my '87 for a number of years and it was a great compromise setup. Improved firmness over stock but not overly harsh.

Then I really wanted to "win the DE" and changed them out for 23/31 and did some fiberglass body stuff. The 23/31 was noticeably harsher than the 22/29. However my 23/31 setup also included the Koni single adjustable shocks.

For your type of use, where it's a really nice car and you enjoy its street use, i'd go with the 22/29.

[NoLift911]

While not having too much seat/ride time in my Carrera with the 22/29 setup, it was Chuck's suggestion for aggressive street and some track.

Seems like a good compromise so far. With fatter sways front and rear and sports all around and a weight of 2450 - it is a firm ride but not harsh.

[rwilner]

Based on Chuck's suggestion, I went with hollow, plated and plugged 21s/27s for a 99% street car looking to do a slightly upgraded stock refresh.