First 911.. am I screwing up?

[Twinspool]

I am currently looking to replace my '87 Supra and have been watching for a good 911 to buy. I found a '77 911 S with about 270k miles on it but it has been rebuilt by Porsche mechanics that corrected all the famous 2.7 *ahem* "features". My question is, do I continue to search for an early S car or should I move towards an SC? Is there such thing as a bad 911?
My use of the vehicle is going to be daily driver to work (short drive) with the occasional track day thrown in. Not looking for a project car..

It's nice to see a bunch of enthusiasts here that do not stoop to the same garbage that the other car boards do.

[Kurt B]

It depends on how much you're looking to spend, and I'm glad I caught you first.
The sc guys will try to lure you into their Lex Luthorian anti-social world domination plot.
However, a 3.2 Carrera, made from 84 to 89, is generally considered the last true 911. Hand built like the SCs and older models, it has more power and a better management system.

They have just a few problems, but I don't know anyone with a 3.2 with prematurely worn valve guides.
Why settle for 180HP on a CIS system, when you can have chippable 207 stock HP system running on DME?
DME is the ticket, and so is the extra HP and torque you get from a 3.2 Carrera.
So shop around.

[rscupper]

Hee Hee - I'm just going to sit back and watch the fun!

You do need to give a price range and maybe the level of 'involvement' you want with your car. You don't want a project, OK, but do you plan to change your own oil? Do you want to do tune ups at home? Do you have a cat (it's always important to have kitty litter handy if you have an SC in your garage ).

Good luck

[wckrause]

Real Porsches don't have computers.

SC's are a good choice, and lower mileage ones can be found in the $12K to $16k price range. You'll pay more for a Carrera, and won't get much more for it. The extra hp is wiped out by the added weight.

[wckrause]

"(it's always important to have kitty litter handy if you have an SC in your garage )."

I know you're not implying that SC's leak more than other 911 engines. That would be a malicious attempt at denegrating the brotherhood of SCWDP. I'll put the drip rate of my engine against any (just as soon as I fix a few leaks).

[marcesq]

Twin:

I have a '77 911, and purchased same knowing that I would have "projects." I drive it daily except when the salt hits the road, then it is up for the winter.

I wanted a narrow body 911 for personal reasons. Lots has been written on this model, and it appears to be the mechanical weakest link, however, if properly attended to, the major problems, based upon age, should have been corrected (exhaust head studs, oil fed tensioners, turbo valve covers, thermal reactors, etc).

I would follow Kurt's advise, however don't rule out the 3.0 cars. You need to decide a spending limit, understanding that buying a 3.0 or 3.2 might be cheaper in the long run than buying a '77 for 7 or 8k and having to put in another 3 or 4k, while still having a car with about 170hp.

FWIW

[pbs911]

http://www.911scwdp.com

[rscupper]

Hey twinspool, did you notice that www.911scwdp.com is 'under construction'? Yep, you guessed it - they can't get it started

[jkeyzer]

270k. That's a lot of miles.

I would keep looking unless it is a stellar example of a well cared for daily driver. At 270k I would think just about every part capable of wearing is starting to wear out... So unless it's someone else's restoration, be afraid.

[Twinspool]

Thanks much for the replies.. I didn't realize I was stirring a pot here..

My price range could range into the 12s but I would rather not get too crazy as I'm getting ready to get married/buy a house.. (trying to get my toys now)
I have explained to my fiancee' that I will have one woman and several cars or vice versa... she understands.

As for the 911s, anything is going to be an improvement over my 3400lb sled of a toyota. She's been a good car, but her usefulness is running out. (long story)

An 84+ carerra would be wonderful... can I get one for >12k? hmm... I'm not so sure.
The SCs are nice... but again, clue me in here to what I can expect. I am mechanically proficient but no expert and I've heard that Weissach's finest aren't exactly DIY friendly.. I can swap a clutch in my supra, and bleed the slave cylinder a dozen times... (!@#$%@!) I would be glad to perform basic tuneups but I just don't want to find out that I'm going to need a rebuild 6 mos after buying..

Thanks again!

[rscupper]

Seriously, twinspool, I'm the one doing the stirring. It's all in good fun on this board (just don't let the scwdp cops catch you). Even I have lusted, in my heart, for an SC (I was younger then).

As far as DIY stuff, I have read much on this board about novices (brave souls, no doubt) who have accomplished what I consider to be substantially involved DIY projects. This place is great resource. Have fun, don't stress

[makaio]

Twinspool,
where in Nor-Cal are you located? For your price range, go with an SC.

[middleyear911]

Let's hear it for 2.7 world domination!!

Never forget the '73 RS!

http://www.middleyear911.com

[KTL]

Twinspool,

If you can swap a clutch and bleed the hyd. system on the Jap GT barge, then I think you can join the Porsche ranks and do some simple, major services on your future 911. Pulling the motor on these cars is the easiest yank i've seen next to a VW Beetle.

Best thing you can do is read alot of stuff and check search the board around here to get a feeling for what the 911's require. I was under the same impression as you:

I am mechanically proficient but no expert and I've heard that Weissach's finest aren't exactly DIY friendly..

until I helped my friend pull the motor on his 86 Carrera to do a clutch swap and other stuff. Yeah, the motor's a tight fit when it's in the car, but you get the hang of it. They're not as complex as you might think. Just an unfamiliar/unconventional drivetrain layout to you, that's all.

Do a good bit of hunting for a car (look at a number of them) as there are some semi-enthusiasts that feel his car is in great shape when they really don't have a clue. Look long enough and you can find a nice, well maintained owner that knows what he's got.

Your price range unfortunately puts you out of the Carrera range (this SC thing is getting kinda scary), but you can find a nice early SC for that money. They are arguably the most durable 911 out there...... I better stop. I feel like i'm coming down with some sort of SC sickness.

I'll put the drip rate of my engine against any (just as soon as I fix a few leaks).

Bring it on wckrause



I'll square off with your dripper any day! Muhahahahahahahahahhahaha...........
rscupper ROCKS!!!

[JDaniel]

Hey Kurt
My '87 has premature valve guide wear. PPI at 45k turned up nothing. At 55k it started fouling plugs...

[Kurt B]

JDaniel:
That's what I had heard. It appears to be a batch of cars in 87!
Interestingly Bruce anderson describes the valve guide wear not with smoking or fouling but with chattering. I have the chattering but no smoke and no fouling.
However, I don't completely understand how to measure the side-to-side play on the valves. I can wiggle mine a little from side to side, but it isn't as though it's 1/4" or anything of the sort.
Do they move at all from side to side? Anyone know the tolerance for the side to side play of valves?

[Superman]

The SCWDP thing is all in good fun. I very much like my SC. Yes, the 3.2s have a little more power, but are also heavier. When I pu tmy engine back in, I'm likely to have about 200-210 hp and weight about 2500 lbs. That'll compete favorably.

I'd agree the DME systems are superior (you didn't hear me say that, Leland), particularly if simplicity is good and complexity is bad. Which it is.

But I'd still say that a low-miles SC is one of the very best automotive values out there. More value for the dollar, particularly more value for $12k, than the Carrera.

And finally, you are going to discover that these cars are a backyard mechanic's dream. Idiots with wrenches (like me) whine all the time that engineers should be required to work on the cars they design. Well, that's how they do it in Stuttgart. Not only do the engineers have to replace parts on these cars, they have to replace them very quickly, in what's called 'the pits.' if you know what I mean. Endurance racing (always Porsche's favorite) sometimes involves replacing gear stacks in transmissions during the race. There is no sweeter car to work on than a 911. You'll see. Parts are not cheap though, so get one that won't need any.

[nhromyak]

Look at these two articles...

http://www.pelicanparts.com/911/911tech_articles.htm

http://www.pelicanparts.com/911/technical_specs/911_guthrie_faq.htm

You can also get the book "The used 911 story" or something to that affect. I am sure someone here already has the book and can get you the details (ISBN, author, correct title, etc.).

[88911coupe]

Welcome to the loony bin! As long as everyone takes their meds you have nothing to worry about...well, except the ones making strange noises and acting especially odd...they're in that SCWDP cult.
All kidding aside, if only for a moment, I would go for an SC considering your budget. I have seen some Carreras in that range but there's usually good reason. Make sure the SC gets the appropriate upgrades mentioned elsewhere.
You should have no trouble with your skill levels but make sure and get a Bentleys manual and Wayne's book.

And please don't tease the SC owners...

[spinner]

Twinspool,
I have a 87 Carrera (like KTL) and like it alot. When I bought it four years ago, I just wanted the newest car I could afford. Back then, I didn't know that what I really wanted was a car that I could drive on the street and really rock on the track. If I could do it over again, I would get a middle year 911 with a carb-ed 3.0 liter or stock 3.2. You can't beat that light weight and power combination. There's lots to be said for DME vs. CIS especially if you intend to enhance the motor. Now, if I want a daily driver with occassional track fun, you really cannot go wrong with either a nice SC or Carrera depending on your budget. So, there's another opinion on your stack.
Paul