Where does a new harness mount?

[jrobb911]

Where does a 3,4 or 5 point harnes connect in an SC? I understand i need a harness bar between the existing 3 point stock belt locations but where does it bolt to after that?
I want a rear seat delete speaker box back there too.
I have recaro se seats and would like at least non retractible 3 point harnes to better keep both shoulders in place. I do some DE events.

[HarryD]

The answer is it depends on how you wish to go and the design of your harness bar.

3 point - Use stock locations (each side of seat and b-pillar).

4 point - Use stock location for lap belt portion. For shoulder straps, use either the rear seat belt attachment points with the straps running over the harness bar, or, if the harness bar is designed to manage the load, attach the shoulder straps to the harness bar directly.

5 point - Same as four point plus a new attachment point below the hole in the seat.

Be aware that some DE groups will not allow the use of 4 point harnesses. Check the rules for the group(s) you plan to DE with be fore you spend any money to be sure you meet the most restrictive requirements.

[jrobb911]

Any suggestions on the brand of harness bar that will support the belts without using the backseat? I plan on having a rear seat delete speaker box.
The DE events I use don't like 4 point belts but with my seats I don't think I have a 5 point option.
I like the idea of the 3 point that is a "Y" at the top supporting both shoulders but I doubt that will pass the mustard.

[Kevin Stewart]

the ideal location is the bar be at least as high as the slots in the east, If you go to low in an impact the belts pull down, Kevin

[Green 912]

You will need to use a truss if you don't want to use the back seat belt bolt points. Truss is better than guide bar but costs more. 4 point belts are not recommended for good reason and I don't think anyone still allows the Y type shoulder belt.
The sub belt has an important job in keeping the shoulder belts from pulling the lap belts up off you pelvis during an impact. If the lap belt is not low and on the pelvis it lifts up and then uses your guts to stop your body. A simple 30 mph impact can generate a 40 G spike.

BK makes well thought out and built bars and trusses.

Brey-Krause Harness Bars and Trusses for Porsche

[schumicat]

Unlike stock seat belts, competition-type belts will prevent any side to side movement or ducking. That means if the roof collapses even a little, your head and spine will be compressed. Another problem is using stock seats which lack harness slots; this means the belts are too far apart (especially on narrow shouldered people). Many harness set ups will make your car more dangerous unless you have additional equipment, and may not be approved by the maker or whoever is sponsoring the event.

[javadog]

If you want to use a four point belt, Schroth makes one that acts like a three point belt in a crash and is legal under certain regulations.

JR

[James Brown]

This is the slippery slop of safety. Better belts means better seat means better roll protection means poor daily ingress/egress. For just DE, leave the 3 point factory belts in and attach a 5 or 6 point w/ snaps and eye bolts so you can remove them. The seat can be modified for the sub belt.

[schumicat]

you can also buy something called a GC lock which will lock 3 point belts in place temporarily. You can do the same thing by tightening and twisting the belt before you buckle it. I wouldn't put 4/5 point harness in car w/o a roll bar, except maybe the Schroth with the ASM feature (one shoulder belt will expand several inches in a crash, allowing body to move down a little).

[Joe Bob]

Best application is a proper seat and a roll bar.

[Kevin Stewart]

If you dont put a cross bar in it and mount it high enough you will crush you spline with an impact, Look into to the safety be fore you buy, with out a cross bar just use your three point, Kevin

[jrobb911]

Are these then available in most DE events with a harnes bar or truss system. It says it mounts to stock locations but it meaning just the 2 lower locations.
SCHROTH RALLYE 3 HARNESSES Arai, Sparco, Bell, Alpinestars Race Gear Distributor

[James Brown]

This is a paragraph from the PCA pacific northwest rule book for DE events concerning seatbelts. There is a bunch more requirements if you want to do DE events. Go to the website and download it and a inspection checklist.

Seat Belts / Harnesses
Seat belts or harnesses must be securely installed with original equipment hardware or better, and at original mounting points or other suitably reinforced points (roll cage attachment in locations approved by the manufacturer is OK).

No four point systems are allowed in Porsches because of the integrated headrest supplied by the factory. In addition to the standard SFI and/or FIA approved five and/or six point system, the standard will allow a four point system in non-Porsches that meets the following requirements: 1. Meet the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 209, 2. Attaches to the factory seat belt mounting points, 3. Each belt is designed to work in a specific vehicle and that vehicle tag must be attached to the belt system. An example of a system that meets the above criteria is the Schroth Quick Fit system.

If the participant chooses to install a 5/6 point driving harness, several changes to the automobile must be made to create a safe occupant restraint system. Harnesses must include an antisubmarine strap and be mounted in an approved manner consistent with the manufacturer’s instructions. The Harness system must be used in conjunction with a seat which has the supplied routing holes for the shoulder and anti-submarine belts. A one piece seat is recommended but not required for it may interfere with the operation of the OEM three piece belt required for street application. All pieces of the restraint system must be installed in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions.

This means that a seat is required to have the proper routing holes for the harness as supplied by the seat manufacturer for the shoulder, lap and anti-submarine straps. The shoulder straps should be mounted at 90 degrees to the axis of your spine or at most 40 degrees down from horizontal. Because the addition of the harness system means that the occupants are fastened upright in the vehicle, a properly padded roll bar or roll cage is strongly encouraged to complete the SYSTEM. The use of one without the other may result in an unsafe environment and is not a COMPLETE SYSTEM. Due to UV degradation and wear the harness webbing must be replaced every five years.

Belts must not be frayed or showing friction burns and the buckle and release mechanism must be in good working condition. Old cars with belts mounted to the seats (1969-73 911 & 912) will require special attention to seat rails, stops, and adjusters on both seats.
And don't forget a HANS device. Racing is expensive!!!

[gtc]

Speedware Motorsports in Redmond sells harness bars that are safe for mounting a harness. They are a lot cheaper than the Brey Krause harness truss.
They should also be able to help with a sub-belt mount, if you need one of those as well.

[jrobb911]

here are my seats in a different car. The rule posted above talks about needed holes in the back of the seats to route the shoulder harness. If the shoulders mount to the bar that they sell at speedware motorsports mount at the right angle and the connect to the rear seat belt locations I am good to go?

Schroth rallye 4 harness

Speedware motorsports harness bar.

Thanks

[HarryD]

For PCA, this may not pass muster.

In any event, you will need to verify that Schroth lists those as acceptable seats.

You will also need to verify with the groups you wish to drive that your system is accepatable as well.

[jrobb911]

Anyone know how to determine if Schroth rally 3 or 4 will work with those seats? Their website doesn't have an email link or list of seats that work with them.

[andrew15]

Reading the above PCA rules, it looks like that 4-pt harness exception is for NON-Porsches with specific labels only. Looking at the Schroth website, it looks like some BMW, VW, Audi and Subie modles can fit this 'quick-fit' system.
Link:
Schroth Racing Harnesses

The best idea is to find out who the safety chair / tech inspector is for the specific series you are planning on running and fly it by him/her.

On the face of it, I don't think the above combo will fly - that harness is more of a 'tuner' item meant for flashy street driving - not track participation. No sub belt, no camlock connector, and shoulder belts joing into one point would probably be the main issues that disqualify it for track driving. Don't get me wrong Scroth makes a great product and I use their 6-pt harness in my own car - this one just doesn't look safe for your planned application.

For DE, you really have 2 safe courses of action:

1) stock seatbelts + stock or aftermarket seats that will allow the body to move in a roll over stiutation and avoid crushing injuries

2) Fit a harness, but also fit a fixed bucket seat and roll bar to make it a complete system.

Most importantly, before spending a dime, contact the organizer / safety / tech person and talk to them - no need to spend money on something that at best, won't pass tech or at worst, make your car a dangerous environment.

Regards,
Andrew M

[jrobb911]

The quick fit systems by Schroth for those cars above are just cut to the right length and use the exising connections in the back seat to connect. No tools or anything needed.

[Joe Bob]

The DE that you will be participating with has a Tech Advisor. Ask him/her since they will be doing the inspection.