can ball joint wedge bolts be reused?

[cwitt]

I'm refreshing my front suspension (Bilstein inserts for Boge struts, Elephant rubber A-arm bushings, Elephant rubber camber plate bushings, sway bar bushings, turbo tie rods, etc.)

Both of my ball joint wedge bolts (a.k.a. 'threaded pin') came out with just a nice easy tap with a normal claw hammer and punch, and appear to be in good condition (no marring on the wedge surfaces).

Do I really need to replace these, or can they be reused?

Thanks,

[JeremyD]

They can be reused - but would I reuse? no.

[Jdub]

No. Never reuse the wedge bolts. Always use new.

[D911SC]

Get new ones- cheap insurance.

[DRACO A5OG]

If it ain't broken, why not, reused mine twice, so far so good. Proper torque, is all you need.

[D911SC]

Originally Posted by DRACO A5OG

If it ain't broken, why not, reused mine twice, so far so good. Proper torque, is all you need.

I follow the logic but for such a cheap part I'd rather be 100% sure in such a critical area.

[IROC]

Just curious, but what would the failure mode of a re-used wedge bolt be?

[Grady Clay]

Don’t throw away your used wedge pins just yet.

Here is a thread you should study.
Double wedge bolt goes how far in?
There are more, similar threads that are important.

I think the general consensus is these particular aftermarket(?) wedge pins with the incorrect(?) angle should not be used.
There seem to still be some out there.

Be sure to compare your new replacement wedge pins to your original and the images.

Note my post about the hardened washer and steel lock-nut.

Best.
Grady

[sc_rufctr]

Thanks Grady but.

IYO Is it OK to re use the original wedge bolts if they are in good condition?

[sc_rufctr]

Originally Posted by IROC

Just curious, but what would the failure mode of a re-used wedge bolt be?

Failure mode = The threaded part would break off and the wedge part would back out.
Lets say this happens at 50 mph just after you hit a small bump in the road.

The rest I'll leave up to your imagination.

But how likely is it for a reused bolt to fail if it's in good condition? Not corroded or deformed???

[IROC]

Originally Posted by sc_rufctr

Failure mode = The threaded part would break off and the wedge part would back out.

I don't see that as a likely failure. Assuming that it is a 6mm thread (just guessing from memory) it would take a load of over 3000 lbs to "break the threaded part" even assuming a lowly 8.8 fastener strength. Even assuming that the strength of a used one was somehow compromised and it was only 50% of the strength of a new one, it would still require a load of over 1500 lbs to break it and I don't see how that load could be applied.

It is not my intent to nitpick here, but if there is a real danger of re-using these things, I'd like to understand what it is as I have routinely re-used them over the years...

[porschenut]

I think it's perfectly fine to reuse them, if they're in good condition. I reused mine.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

My way of thinking is how they were installed. if installed correctly by tapping them home, I think they are OK to reuse. I have seen some that use the thread/nut to pull them home and then torque the nut like it's a rear springplate. In dismantling many cars, I've seen seriously stretched threaded sections that I would not consider safe to reuse.

[Grady Clay]

Originally Posted by sc_rufctr

IYO Is it OK to re use the original wedge bolts if they are in good condition?

Originally Posted by sc_rufctr

Failure mode = The threaded part would break off and the wedge part would back out.
Lets say this happens at 50 mph just after you hit a small bump in the road.
The rest I'll leave up to your imagination.
But how likely is it for a reused bolt to fail if it's in good condition? Not corroded or deformed???

I agree with your potential failure mode.

I have re-used ones that I have installed new (OE Porsche).
These were low mileage, removed, installed and torqued correctly and well greased.

The good news is that these are originally robust and reliable parts.



A couple of issues need to be considered:

Was the threaded end damaged on removal?
Removal typically involves ‘hammering’ on the threaded end.
Did this bend/damage the threaded end?

The design of the threaded end-washer-nut tends to put an off-axis bending on the threaded end when tightened.
This could have been prevented with a pair of conical ‘self-aligning’ washers but Porsche didn’t choose this (not necessary or too expensive).

On the other side of the coin: Have I ever seen the wedge pin with the threaded end broken off? No, but I retired when the oldest wedge pin was only 20 years old. Some are 40+ now.
I have seen the threaded end ‘twisted off’ unscrewing a frozen nut.

There are also the obvious changes in manufacturers and manufacturing.
This brings up the question: Are the replacement parts of the same quality as the original (decades old) parts?



Comparing the three connections at the ball joint:
The wedge pin is probably least likely to fail.
Having the threaded end brake off, the wedge pin may still stay in place.
As the wedge pin comes out there may be some indication for the driver.

The ball joint nut can unscrew.
This would take some time and have indications for the driver.

The ball joint can fail.
The ball joint pin failing is instantaneous and catastrophic.
If the ball joint ‘comes apart’, this may or may-not give warning but is just as catastrophic.



Would I install a used wedge pin on a customer’s car? Never.

The wedge pin, ball joint and ball joint nut are probable the most ‘mission critical’ parts in our 911s.
Recently, I would add the connection between the steering rack pinion and the flange to the rubber steering cushion (and the other pieces in the steering).
I also add tie rods (both end joints and the connection into the rack) to the list.
I consider the prior method of ball joint attachment (pinch bolt) to be defective new and dangerous.



If you have a connecting rod bolt break or something in the transmission come apart, you pull to the roadside and the only injury is to your pocketbook.

If one of these suspension / steering parts break, it may cost your and others’ lives.
No question about the priorities here.

Best,
Grady

[Pazuzu]

Originally Posted by Grady Clay

Don’t throw away your used wedge pins just yet.

Here is a thread you should study.
Double wedge bolt goes how far in?
There are more, similar threads that are important.

Grady

Because of those threads, I sucked it up and bought new hardware just 2 weeks ago from my local dealer. Cost just about $100 for two wedge bolts, 2 washer and 2 locking nuts.

The wedge bolts I received had the proper bevels on them. It's clear that at least some of the dealers (presumably all, but I wouldn't want my name associated with that...) are getting the correct, original wedge bolts as stock.

I suggest spending the extra $20 or so and going to the dealer.

[brads911sc]

Why would you want to? Cheap insurance compared to the cost of the other things you have done.

Originally Posted by cwitt

I'm refreshing my front suspension (Bilstein inserts for Boge struts, Elephant rubber A-arm bushings, Elephant rubber camber plate bushings, sway bar bushings, turbo tie rods, etc.)

Both of my ball joint wedge bolts (a.k.a. 'threaded pin') came out with just a nice easy tap with a normal claw hammer and punch, and appear to be in good condition (no marring on the wedge surfaces).

Do I really need to replace these, or can they be reused?

Thanks,

[brads911sc]

$25 per side from our host.

Originally Posted by Pazuzu

Because of those threads, I sucked it up and bought new hardware just 2 weeks ago from my local dealer. Cost just about $100 for two wedge bolts, 2 washer and 2 locking nuts.

The wedge bolts I received had the proper bevels on them. It's clear that at least some of the dealers (presumably all, but I wouldn't want my name associated with that...) are getting the correct, original wedge bolts as stock.

I suggest spending the extra $20 or so and going to the dealer.

[Pazuzu]

Originally Posted by brads911sc

$25 per side from our host.

Have we determined that the stock that Wayne is getting is the correct stuff now? I haven't actually seen anyone in the past 2 years say "yup, I bought from our host and it's the good bolts now".

I didn't WANT to pay dealer prices (which included the 10% tax we have here...),, but I did want to know that what I got was what I wanted

[brads911sc]

I bought them from Wayne in 2009 and they were OEM.

Originally Posted by Pazuzu

Have we determined that the stock that Wayne is getting is the correct stuff now? I haven't actually seen anyone in the past 2 years say "yup, I bought from our host and it's the good bolts now".

I didn't WANT to pay dealer prices (which included the 10% tax we have here...),, but I did want to know that what I got was what I wanted

[Pazuzu]

Originally Posted by brads911sc

I bought them from Wayne in 2009 and they were OEM.

Then post in this thread Double wedge bolt goes how far in? and state that so others don't follow me down that path!

I spent some time researching the wedge bolt issue, and found nothing to make the think it was solved. Lots of people with issues, lots of people finding ways to justify putting the wrong bolts in, but no one showing that the issue was actually solved. Going to the dealer seemed like a safe bet (even then, I was 50-50 expecting that THEY would have the wrong bolts as well...).