I rebuild engine but it doesn't start, help !!!
 

I've dismantled and changed the piston rings along with the valves and the guides + all the gaskets on my 930 from 1989. I've now put the engine back into the car, connected everything but it doesn't start. The distributor is set as it should (contact on rotor towards the little groove on the distributor when engine in TDC for cylinder 1) and the spark cables are connected in the right firing order (checked with Wayne's book and the technical data from the car).

There is a spark at the plug and gas comes out of the injection lines but the car does not start, it does not even cough.

The only thing I've left over to suspect is the timing. The guy who set it for me said that for this engine, the intake valve stroke in TDC overlap with 0.1mm tappet clearance should be at 1mm and so he set it at that value. But now that the engine does not start, I've checked the needed value for this engine and Porsche indicates between 0.65 and 0.8mm.

Could this be the reason that the engine does not start? If not, what else could I look at?

Thanks in advance.

Just want to add that the distributor cap, rotor and spark plug lines are new.

no.

you can still be 180 out with the timing. usually if you are, you get bad backfiring though.

here is how to check,
remove the left intake valve cover. turn the engine over by hand. (wrench). when the intake for #1 closes, stop turning when Z1(TDC) lines up to the seam inthe case. then recheck the dist rotor and timing mark.

I'd bet on the distributor... everything backwards, or, more likely, 180° out of phase. I agree you'd likely hear some kind of a cough, but it's sure the usual suspect. Lots of posts here on that problem.

The 930 distributor rotation is counter clockwise. Check that and also check the 930 forum. There's a sticky that has a lot of information on no start conditions.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-930-turbo-super-charging-forum/547032-sticky-common-answers-why-my-car-doesnt-start.html

Ok I'll check again. By the way, how do I turn the engine over now it's in the car? I can't get a wrench on the pulley nut with all the parts installed in front of it. Is there another trick?

What's in front of the fan? How about some photos?

Well, all the usual stuff so it's nearly impossible to get a wrench on that nut:

http://img816.imageshack.us/img816/3528/043we.jpg

http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/7645/056ow.jpg

http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/262/060cb.jpg

930 engine sits a little further back towards the rear bumper than the 911. I bet the wrench cant slip down in there. I don't know what to suggest besides a big open end wrench or a crows foot.

Edit - Just jog the engine with the key. You don't have to be exactly on TDC to see if your dist is out 180.

I did it with the key, after a 100 tries, I got somewhere near the Z1 mark but I didn't check if it was when the the intake for #1 closes.

I know this may go against conventional wisdom, but mark the distributor and move it 180 degrees... from wherever its at... if that is the problem, it will start, if not move it back. My distributor was one tooth off. So I moved it in one direction 1 tooth.... it fixed my issue. As a note, mine was off 1 tooth and it still ran well enough to do the 20 minute breakin. i only realized it when I went to set the timing and I couldnt get close to Z1.

To Turn engine: put wrench on fan bolt, push in belt to take up all slack, turn fan cw while pushing in on belt. The engine will turn over. To make it easier-pull the plugs. Good luck.

Like he said. Check your rotation you may have to take off the intercooler to get the cap off.

it depends on which direction you are off one tooth. i have to pull my dizzy out and move it one tooth if want to go further in a certain direction because i am at the end of my adjustment. it jsut depends on if i want to go more retarded or more advanced and what tooth i am on.

i would not just pull it out and turn it. if you are not 180 out and you put it 180 out, you can cause a serious backfire.

I'll do it like it should be done this evening. I'll pull the plugs and remove the left intake valve cover and put the engine on the Z1 mark when the the intake for #1 closes.
Then I'll align my distributor and give it a try.
I'll keep you posted.

you will have to keep turning after #1 closes to get to Z1.

check dist rotation too, as posted.

verify firing order.

Ok, so now I've set the distributor as told: I aligned Z1 after intake valve of #1 closes and aligned the contact on the rotor towards the little groove on the distributor and installed the spark plug cables according to the firing order specified on the little picture in the engine bay but the engine does nothing. There is a spark so I now have to turn to the gas. I don't understand why there could be a problem, I didn't touch any electrical devices on the car nor the pump or anything. I'll verify this evening if gas comes out of the injectors (I have not checked that yet). I can smell some gas odours in the engine bay.
Any other suggestions? This becomes boring, I want to drive my car!

You've got the wires in the distributor cap correctly for its counterclockwise direction, right? And the business end of the rotor is right on the wire for cylinder #1? And you have spark at the spark plug connectors?
I'd forget about a problem with the gas if you didn't mess with anything associated with it and you can smell it. There's enough to at least cough; fact you have no response suggests electrical stuff.

+1

Remember this turns counterclockwise. So the wires will be set up in the firing order in a counterclockwise way.
Also, the rotor position is critical. The leading edge of the rotor will be on the notch in the distributor housing which will also correspond to the #1 plug wire, but again it is on a counterclockwise rotation so you could be one tooth off and still look close.

No cough at all. I'm pretty sure everything is correct now with the distributor. I put the wires like shown on the sticker in the engine bay and it shows that the distributor turns counter clockwise so that should be ok. I'll post a few pics this evening.
Thanks for the help.

Take a look at these notes I made a while back while having the same problem you are having. You might think about the test light trick and the "listen to air" trick. I still think that timing is the odds on favorite for your problem and I've been in this exact same (frustrating) predicament, solved for me only when I tried the air pressure trick. Jim

"Reinstalled but timing was wrong. Redid placement of distributor shaft following Haynes, p.85, 5.2-5. (Set crankcase mark to Z, with rotor pointed to cylinder #1 or ~ 4 PM. Remove rotor. Use alligator clips to attach test lamp to hot (only) lead on distributor & to ground. Turn motor backward ~15° toward cylinder 5. Turn on ignition, check to see if test light is on. If it is, turn engine backward a bit more. Repeat till light is off. Be sure you are really looking at the timing for cylinder #1, not #5 (which would be wrong.) If you have moved the Z mark more than 30°, you are likely dealing with #5 just before it in firing order, & you may need to move the distributor rotor one tooth clockwise & try again. This is not a very good description, but the idea is to have the test light go on when the crank gets to the Z mark as it is rotated from the #5 firing position as observed on the rotor to the #1 firing position (ignition on during this rotation.)
Car still didn’t start. So I had primary power (indicated by the test light) & correct timing, but no starting. Points aren’t grounded or test light check above wouldn’t have worked. Current goes from battery to switch to small red wire into MSD box, from which emerge wires to & from the coil primary & the trigger wire thru the points to ground. MSD is getting trigger signals. Also, MSD web site test below says MSD & coil fine.
Distributor a tooth off? No. There are 12 teeth at the bottom of the distributor, so each tooth is 30° from the next & a move of “one distributor tooth” clockwise or counterclockwise changes the distributor position by 30°. The distributor turns 1 turn for each two turns of the crank & each spark plug is fired every other turn of the crank. Not sure how this translates, but being one distributor tooth off is either 15 or 60° at the flywheel I think… a lot either way.
Earlier, got distributor in 180° off! Reset crank at “Z”. Positioned distributor shaft so rotor is directly over filed mark at position #1. Rotated motor back a bit toward 5 with test light across distributor contact, then came forward toward cylinder 1. I was close. Moved distributor case a bit to get opening of points just at “Z”… as suggested in Haynes. Tried again to start. Nothing. At this point, timing seemed right, trigger circuit was working, points were opening properly, & there was electricity from the MSD per their test below. Problem: timing was 180° off; not revealed by anything done above! I finally did this: unscrewed #1 plug about 7/8 of the way… this lets a bit of air come out & yields a sound you can hear when you turn motor clockwise to the firing point on #1 cylinder. Just listen for the sound of exiting air; you won’t hear it when crank is 360° off as valve(s) are open. (Re timing: there are two revs for firing cycle… 720°. Intake opens at zero & stays open to 212°, then closes from 212° to 360° where it fires until 510° (the full 360 + 150° more.) It then opens at 150° (exhaust leaves) & closes at 10° before top dead center.. & for these 17° you should hear air being pushed out.) Car started instantly after reset!

firing order on the engine bay???

does it have the firing order or a picture of the engine with 123456 on it? what firing order did you use?


if the timing is correct and firing order is correct, it may be mixture related, something with the FV, or the relay controlling the FV. make sure the eletronic sided of the system is correct.

I've discovered a second problem. The gas pumps didn't work so I bypassed the relay and now at least the engine coughs but still doesn't start.

Here are some pictures :

First of the decal in the engine bay of the firing order. I connected all the spark cables following these indications.

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/6038/firingorder.jpg

Here you see the Z1 mark aligned. I put a stick in cylinder one and it's at TDC.

http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/442/85838051.jpg

And finally the distributor with the rotor aligned with the marking.

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/294/distributor.jpg

Could it still be one tooth off? If yes, in what direction?

My money is on moneymanager....make sure you're on the compression stroke at TDC.

Have you told us if the wires going into the distributor went in counterclockwise starting at 1? Your pictures are fine but you could still not be on the compression stroke. But you're sure you got that right with the valve cover off?

Where are you located? Maybe a local Pelican can provide an extra set of eyes.....

JB

I'm in France...

I rotated the distributor one extra tooth and now it starts. The engine doesn't run on it's own however. If I stop the starter, the engine dies. What could this be related to?

sounds like you are 180 out.

also, what are you running fuel wise? CIS? When I switched to ITB's and a more agressive cam I needed to add a vacuum canister to smooth out the idle because the cams were not allowing enough vacuum to rrun the EFI at idle smoothly.

I hate to ask something really obvious, but I've seen it happen: Have you double checked all of your possible air leaks?

When you are on Z1, #1 the intake valve will be loose as the valve adjustment .1mm. If the valve is tight, you are 180 out because you re on the intake cycle, 180 out. You need the leading edge of the rotor lining up with the notch on the distributor with the #1 plug wire in the proper hole, just to the left of the clip for the cap.
Bruce

Did you add a new ignition system? Check to see that the (+) power to the box doesn't cut-off when the key is moved from the start position. Been there...done that.

Everything is stock, CIS and ignition included. I've changed all the gaskets of the injection system so there should be (I hope) no air leaks. If there are, that would complicate the whole situation!

If the distributor is 180° off, the engine doesn't start at all, right? Mine now starts so maybe I'm just 1 or 2 (is this possible?) teeth off. I'll try the air pressure trick Jim suggested and verify with a flash light.

And my cables go like this: #1 plug wire in the hole just to the right of the clip for the cap and then 6, 2, 4, 3 5 (counter clock wise).

in the proper hole, just to the left of the clip for the cap.
Bruce
Yesterday, 08:35 PM

This is a ccw distributor set on TDC for #1. You can see the mark on the edge and the #1 wire should be right above it.
Bruce

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1301060661.jpg

On the 89 turbo, I think #1 should be on the right of the clip as the distributor turns counter clockwise.

Let's now suppose that the distributor is set ok, what else could make the engine cough? It starts for a quarter second and then dies and sometimes there is a bang with some smoke. I'm getting deseperate now.

Time to bring in a Pro. Sounds like you're lost I would get some help from a local Tech.

Give the light/air pressure trick a try before moving on. You have got to absolutely rule out being 180° out.