Dealer odometer rollback input
 

Hi guys. I'm looking at an sc car advertised with 52250k miles being sold by a dealer. I just got the carfax and it shows that the car was reported to have had 53000 miles in '99!! My next question to the dealer of course is did the car sit for 12 years??

Should I run from this car, attempt to somehow contact the previous owner, or continue with ppi and possible sale? Thanks if you can suggest anything.

Kurt

Sometimes people get lazy and forget to check actual mileage when changing the title. It is possible the people just rounded up the mileage when the title was changed over. Obviously, being lazy in this regard can create problems in selling, as you are demonstrating by being a concerned buyer. Perhaps the dealer made a mistake in the ad??

Hi Nic.. the photos show the odo reading. Thx for your info..

Kurt,

Evaluate the car as it is today.

Does it fit what you want?
Does it pass a PPI to your satisfaction?
Is the price / condition acceptable?
Assuming it is 2X or even 3X mileage, is that acceptable?

Odometer rollback is a serious Federal crime.
Can you figure out who did it?
At least you can report it with documentation and save someone not as observant as you.
If you decide to buy, can you negotiate a lower price?

Best,
Grady

I have a 993 with a carfax odometer warning. The mileage changed down between 2 reports. and then back up. It also came with service records convincing me the error was a misread odo during an oil change. The owner didn,t change and the dealer was servicing the car before and after for another 2 years.Mileage accumulated at an average over several years consistent with the condition of the car.. If you have no other records available you can only guess.
The odometers on these cars often break too. It,s possible the PO drove for years without it working and then got it fixed before selling it. Also note that SC before 1980 had a 85 mph speedo which has often been changed to the 160 mph later one also losing lots of miles in the process. Unless you are looking for a museum collector car with lot,s of documentation I wouldn,t pay a major premium for low mileage as many are wrong

I'd treat it as a car with twice the mileage and base my price on that. If it's truly been sitting for 12 years, I'd look elsewhere. Too much potential for dry seals and other rot problems. These cars are happiest when they get driven.

Very low mileage cars are often priced at a premium and then you are stuck not being able to drive it for fear of diminishing the value. If it's strictly for display in a museum or an investment maybe I could see it, but I'd rather have one I can drive.

The carfax on my 85 now carries a warning that the odometer has a false reading, simply because the PO checked a box on the back of the NJ title that stated that the miles had exceed the odometer capacity. I was too lazy to go back to the PO with a notarized affidavit stating he checked the box in error, or to have him get a new title from the state and redo the whole sale. - very frustrating.
As to your post, I would be very hesitant on buying a car from someone I even suspected of committing a crime. Bill K

Grady gives good advice about weighing the pros & cons.

If this is your "forever" car, then base the price you're willing to pay on condition, PPI results, etc...

If you think you're likely to sell the car down the road, then put yourself in the shoes of a potential picky buyer: all bets are off when it comes to a potential odometer rollback and there are plenty of other cars out there with no red flags, however innocent the discrepancy may be. It's an SC (granted a great car!), but not a '73 RS.

Thank you, Grady. Excellent points. I am awaiting the dealers response to my question about this no elapsed mileage for 12 yrs issue. I also asked if I can contact the cars previous owner. Btw, would you recommend reporting this? If so, how do u do it? Thx again,

Kurt

Thank you, Larry. I've decided not to buy the car unless the seller can convince me the car is legit (which I highly doubt). I may try to negotiate based on 2x the mileage, which is an excellent point. Thx again! K

Points well taken, thanks Bill

K

Thank you, Jason :)

Btw, is it possible to visually identify odometer tampering? Like "fresh" scratches on the housing or dirty fingerprints?

I agree with Grady. Judge the car on condition wear etc. Condition of leather seats etc can often tell more than an ODO.
On a 996 you could pull the fuse to the odo and it wouldn´t register the miles. There is always ways and means but its difficult to fake leatherwear or faded paint etc etc

nope, especially if it was merely a case of them sending a faulty unit for repair to someone like NHS, or Palo Alto. ...or they could have just swapped with another car. Bill K

It's possible, but then then again, the whole unit may have been simply changed out/replaced. There "might" be a date stamp still visible on the body of the speedo, but that would only tell you if the thing was of the proper period/year (or not).
Maybe the odometer gear was broken for years and years, and then replaced. It would be obvious if a PO did that work, because it is impossible to do so by hand without gouging the bezel lip up a bit. Also, the "paint" seals at the screws would be chipped away. However, it might not be obvious if done by a pro outfit like North Hollywood? Even then I would expect that they would somehow document/stamp the speedo as "repaired" or something......
Still you would have to find a way to get it out of the dash (with permission?) to check it; easy removal by hand usually, pulling at the outer edges and turning a little 'til it pulls free. What you find might simply "surprise" the dealer and no intent to defraud could be proven perhaps; would help your negotiations, though. I wonder if he'd let you "in there".
Edit: Was writing while you posted, Bill. So NHS and or Palo Alto has the ability to make a "spotless" reapir job? Do you know if they somehow date the work/stamp it or something?

The odometer on my 85 stopped working soon after I bought it last Sept and I sent it to NHS. There was no indication (other that it looking brand-new compared to the rest of the 150,000 mile gauges) that the unit had been repaired, but if I recall correctly, there was some warning-type official paperwork in the box that I ignored - I just wanted my speedo back in the hole. Bill K

I had a customer with a BMW that had the speedo sensor unplugged. He told me to leave it that way. Car only showed 35,K.
It most likely had over 80,K.
The next time he came in I told him to get lost because he was a scam-mer.
It was an M3 so his thinking was to scam someone when he sold the car.
A*# wipe.

Thanks Gents. I just got an email from the dealer, below. The car presents very nicely and has little wear in the seats. All stock. Really what I've been looking for..



Kurt,
We have a lot of problems with the state emissions stations putting the wrong mileage on the inspection reports.** It probably had 53k at the last inspection in 1999.* If you noticed, there were no more inspections after that time.* The owner died and the car set for a long time and we bought it from the widow.* We just spent about $2500 on it at the local P&A to get it in top mechanical shape.* We also just installed new tires.** It is an incredibly nice car.** I will be in the office Saturday from 10 until 4pm and I would love to show it to you. * I got the price wrong.* It is $23k.

curious - what was the wrong price? higher-lower?

Hi B, here was the previous email:

Kurt,
We would welcome a PPI on this car.* We had a complete inspection at the best independent Porsche shop in town and spent about $2500 on it, so it is totally ready to go.* We also just installed new tires.* It takes at least $23,500 to buy the car.* Cosmetically on a scale of*1-10, I would call this car about a 9.* Please let me know if I can be of assistance.* There is also a local customer that is interested in the car, so it may not make it to the end of the listing.* You can call me if you would like to proceed.

For what it's worth, my car had been sitting for 11 years when I bought it. So that does happen. Mind you, I've spent a ton of money on the damned thing....

I cant recall when... a couple years ago there were 3-4 of us who looked at ebay cars over a 4-5 week period... it was amazing how many low mileage cars didnt even have the period correct Speedo. I wouldnt trust any 30 year old car with under 75k miles unless it had extensive documentation proving the mileage. Buyer beware.

Pleco, sure you know this but you could also buy a great Carrera 3.2 G50 for that price. Steve

Thanks again, Gents. I'm going to call the mechanic and see what he thinks about the car's general appearnce/wear. Thanks again :)

Just spoke with the mechanic and, although nice, he could never give me a solid, resounding answer on anything. There was a general hesitancy in everything he explained as if he was being interrogated. I feel that the dealer briefed him to prep for my call That's enough for me! :(

In general - I wouldn't believe the mileage. It's too easy on these cars to either disconnect the speedo or roll it back yourself. I know a guy that drove a 993 turbo to Houston from New Orleans before Katrina with the speedo disconnected, because he didn't "want the mileage" on the car.

When I bought my Targa, the speedo was broken and said 136000. The PO had died, so who knows how long it was like that. I found some reciepts with 132000 on them, so it couldn't have been too long. Then again, NH Speedo is resetting mine to 000000. Why not? My car and I'm renewing it, so might as well start over.

Now - the mechanic, that's a convincer. If you've gotta have that one, find another mechanic and do an independent PPI. Otherwise - walk away.

Ken

That is exactly why you take a car to a mechanic that is unfamiliar with the car and YOU pay him to represent YOUR interests, not the dealer’s.
This guy wants to do more work for the dealer, not you.
Find someone else for a PPI.

Ask the dealer to let you take the car somewhere else.
Ask for the receipts and descriptions of the wonk done.
Ask if there were any issues not completely repaired.

Ask flat-out: “Has this car ever been damaged?”
The only acceptable is an unequivocal “No.”

Is there a warranty? “Show me.”

Best,
Grady

/facepalm
 

$23k for an SC is $10k too much, especially with dubious history.

It seems you are committed to making this as difficult as possible. If I may offer some some helpful advice, start looking in California, and stop looking at dealers.

Thank you again, Grady. I appreciate it. I will keep this advice for the next one... Its time to let this one go, I'm afraid. The dealer told me it would be a bad idea to talk with the widow about this car since she is devastated from her husband's death. Also, I can't imagine the car sitting for 12 yrs undriven by its owner!

Regards,
Kurt

It seems the only ppl these days with near-minty stock black SC's are dealerships! :rolleyes: Thanks tho'

Kurt

I bought a 95 993 C2 coupe silver on black 100,000 mi. Burns no oil ,has several upgrades and will need a clutch before long. Less than 20K a yr ago. $23 for an SC is way too much. I,ve owned 3 SCs and wouldn,t look at them over $12-15. I recently sold a very nice SC with a 3.6 etc etc etc. for $17

Hi Steve. Thanks for your suggestion. I'm stuck on the sc for a number of specific reasoms!

Yes, but I'm a bit of a nut, John!

I'm wondering if this dealer was in TX by chance?

FWIW, the Carfax on my BMW, which I've owned for 5 years, shows an accident two years ago in New York. Moral of story is that Carfax is, in my opinion, unreliable and may shed poor light on undeserving cars. Attempts to remove the erroneous info from the report have been unsuccessful.

If I were serious about the car, I would inspect the car for what it is today and buy it based on its present condition. I don't buy cars to preserve them so I don't care much about mileage. But, if you were looking for a true low miles car and this is a sticky point for you (as it will be for other future buyers), then walk away. There are many SC's to choose from.

fwiw, I had a similar issue with the emissions stations. ...I told the guy the mileage; 100,028 ("one hundred thousand and twenty eight"). . . only to find out later that he typed in 128,000. :mad:

I expect that Carfax will pass-on that mistake, and give my SC's "Carfax" history a black-eye.

Anyway, mileage really is a diminishing issue, in the context of time. Sure it helps tell the story -in this case, check the fuel tank for a band of rust- but after a few years (decades?) it's all about condition. ..and the miles on the clock are just a small part of the story.

I'm sorry but this story just gets more fishy all the time.

In a previous email the dealer says "The owner died and the car set for a long time and we bought it from the widow"

Now he says "it would be a bad idea to talk with the widow about this car since she is devastated from her husband's death". Did he die 12 years ago and she's still grieving, or did he just die. Or is it all just a big fabricated story.

As others have said, $23,000 is way too much for any SC with a 12 year gap in it's history. That's even top $$ for a nice 84-89 Carrera. Heck I've seen nice 964's for that price. I know of 2 996's with 60k miles for that price.

Thank you fellas very much. It is fishy whats going on, but Ive emailed the dealer and told him when he's ready to deal to email me. I will get a strong ppi done should we ever get there.

As for the three other "mint" low mile cars I'm eyeing, these guys all expect $25 to 29k for their cars. And were only talking 50-60k miles range...these mileages may be fraudulent as well! :0

Not whining, btw....just ready to buy!! :)