List of Porsche rally cars

[AlexJ]

Hi everyone!

Does anyone knows where can I find a list of Porsche cars that ever had homologation for rally events? (with homologation numbers)
Thanks in advance for any help.

[AlexJ]

No one can help?

[Grady Clay]

Alex,

Please define your search a bit more.

Porsche rally cars and homologation are difficult-to-document subjects.

Unless you are talking about a particular car in a particular event, the cars are in a ‘fuzzy’ area between production cars and race cars. There are street cars built to ‘rally specs’ and there are race cars initially built to rally specs. There are varying degrees of ‘rally specs’. There are Factory cars, customer cars and more built later.

Homologation is just as bad. Porsche (as most manufacturers I suspect) has played ‘fast and loose’ about the cars, even changing VIN on some cars.

I don’t know of anyone who has managed to get archival papers from the FIA. I suspect the Porsche archive is the place to ask. Many are in the public domain, finding them is a challenge.



Regarding 911 rally cars, keep in mind there was a transition that included 356, 904 (and prior racers) being entered along with the earliest 911s.

The first (official) 911 entry was the 1965 Monte Carlo Rally, January 16-23, 1965. In that event two Factory engineers (Herbert Lange & Peter Falk) took a slightly modified 911 to 5th place. Porsche built three cars for the event (33075, 33076 & 33085). It is unlikely that these cars were ‘homologated’.

There is a long line of rally cars to follow.

If a particular car were represented as a ‘Rally Car’, I would want to see the provenance and some physical evidence. Most of this is usually lost in the confusion of history and racing.

Best,
Grady

[boba]

Alex, I suggest you ask your question on the Early 911S Registry board. There has been extensive discussion on these cars there. I am not sure if the specific list you ask for exists, as Grady stated lots of fuzziness. Having said that there is a wealth of knowledge on that board to include extensive photo archives of period cars and events.

Early 911S Registry

Enjoy the journey, and I hope you find what you are looking for.

Bob

[chris 964]

this may help, FIA historic regs. Even has a photo of a Rothmans 911 - FIA Historic Rally Championship Regulations

My understanding for FISA/FIA regulations is Group 2 required a production run of 1000, Group 4 400 and Group B 200(the 959). The 911 did not qualify as Group A or N because at the time Porsche produced less than 25,000 annually and only had two seats, regulations required 4.

Try here as well, UK based forum with a dedicated section to Race and Rally http://www.impactbumpers.com/forum/index.php?showforum=10

[Grady Clay]

chris 964,


Great link!


Here is some of the info from the site:
FIA Historic Rally Championship Regulations


1379 T Pontiac Tempest Le Mans GTO 6373 01.04.1965 USA 0
249 4 Porsche 910 1991 01.01.1969 D 0
183 GT Porsche 911 1991 16.11.1964 D 3
503 3 Porsche 911 1991 01.01.1966 D 1
1451 2 Porsche 911 1991 01.01.1966 D 2
3060 3 Porsche 911 2687 01.02.1974 D 2
204 GT Porsche 912 1582 01.08.1965 D 2
502 3 Porsche 912 1582 01.01.1966 D 0
606 3 Porsche 912 1582 01.01.1969 D 0
3003 3 Porsche 912 1582 01.01.1970 D 2 old Gr. 1 form 5139
5139 1 Porsche 912 1582 01.01.1967 D 1
250 4 Porsche 917 4494 01.05.1969 D 2
3075 3 Porsche 924 1984 01.01.1977 D 6
3075 B Porsche 924 1984 01.01.1977 D 4 Tr
3081 3 Porsche 928 4474 01.01.1978 D 1
3081 B Porsche 928 4474 01.01.1978 D 0 Tr
21 GT Porsche 356 B / 1600 GS 1588 16.06.1960 D 1
71 GT Porsche 356 B / 2000 GS 1966 08.10.1962 D 3 BR
139 GT Porsche 356 C / 1600 SC 1582 05.09.1963 D 0
501 3 Porsche 356 C / 1600 SC 1582 01.01.1966 D 0
159 GT Porsche 904 GTS 1966 12.04.1964 D 4
282 B Porsche 911 Carrera 3164 01.06.1986 D 2
295 B Porsche 911 Carrera 2 3600 01.09.1990 D 3
294 B Porsche 911 Carrera 4 3600 01.09.1990 D 2
609 3 Porsche 911 E 1991 01.01.1969 D 2
3011 3 Porsche 911 E/T (2195 & 2341) 2195 01.04.1970 D 4 Cylinder capa.
579 3 Porsche 911 L Targa 1991 01.01.1968 D 1
547 3 Porsche 911 S 1991 01.11.1966 D 6
608 3 Porsche 911 S 1991 01.01.1969 D 3
3005 3 Porsche 911 S 2195 01.01.1970 D 0
3061 3 Porsche 911 S 2687 01.02.1974 D 3
3025 3 Porsche 911 S ( 2195 et 2341) 2195 01.04.1970 D 8
578 3 Porsche 911 S Targa 1991 01.01.1968 D 1
207 B Porsche 911 SC 2687 01.03.1982 D 11 ON 3062
3062 3 Porsche 911 SC 2687 01.02.1974 D 7
3062 B Porsche 911 SC 2687 01.02.1974 D 3 Tr
577 3 Porsche 911 T 1991 01.01.1968 D 4
607 3 Porsche 911 T 1991 01.01.1969 D 3
208 B Porsche 911 Turbo ( 2993) 1.4 4190 01.03.1982 D 10 ON 3076
645 4 Porsche 911 Turbo ( 2993) 1.4 4190 01.01.1976 D 0
3076 3 Porsche 911 Turbo ( 2993) 1.4 4190 01.01.1977 D 8
3076 B Porsche 911 Turbo ( 2993) 1.4 4190 01.01.1977 D 2 Tr
580 3 Porsche 912 Targa 1582 01.01.1968 D 0
626 4 Porsche 914 / 6 1991 01.03.1970 D 3
3042 3 Porsche 914 / 6 1991 01.10.1971 D 1 BR
672 4 Porsche 924 Carrera GT ( 1984) 1.4 2777 01.01.1981 D 4
203 B Porsche 924 Carrera GT (1984) 1.4 2777 01.01.1982 D 8 ON 672
660 4 Porsche 924 Turbo 2777 01.02.1979 D 1
3083 B Porsche 924 Turbo ( 1995) 1.4 2793 01.04.1979 D 3 Tr
3083 3 Porsche 924 Turbo (1984) 1.4 2778 01.04.1979 D 4
209 B Porsche 928 S 4664 01.03.1982 D 4 ON 3085
3085 3 Porsche 928 S 4664 01.11.1980 D 1
3085 B Porsche 928 S 4664 01.11.1980 D 0 Tr
283 B Porsche 928S 4597 01.06.1986 D 2
284 B Porsche 944 Turbo (2479) 1.4 3470 01.06.1986 D 3
226 4 Porsche Carrera 6 1991 01.05.1966 D 0
637 4 Porsche Carrera RS 2687 01.01.1973 D 5
3053 3 Porsche Carrera RS 2687 01.07.1973 D 18
290 B Premier 118 NE 1172 01.11.1987

Perhaps this helps.

Best,
Grady

[chris 964]

Originally Posted by Grady Clay

chris 964,


Great link!


Here is some of the info from the site:
FIA Historic Rally Championship Regulations


1379 T Pontiac Tempest Le Mans GTO 6373 01.04.1965 USA 0
249 4 Porsche 910 1991 01.01.1969 D 0
183 GT Porsche 911 1991 16.11.1964 D 3
503 3 Porsche 911 1991 01.01.1966 D 1
1451 2 Porsche 911 1991 01.01.1966 D 2
3060 3 Porsche 911 2687 01.02.1974 D 2
204 GT Porsche 912 1582 01.08.1965 D 2
502 3 Porsche 912 1582 01.01.1966 D 0
606 3 Porsche 912 1582 01.01.1969 D 0
3003 3 Porsche 912 1582 01.01.1970 D 2 old Gr. 1 form 5139
5139 1 Porsche 912 1582 01.01.1967 D 1
250 4 Porsche 917 4494 01.05.1969 D 2
3075 3 Porsche 924 1984 01.01.1977 D 6
3075 B Porsche 924 1984 01.01.1977 D 4 Tr
3081 3 Porsche 928 4474 01.01.1978 D 1
3081 B Porsche 928 4474 01.01.1978 D 0 Tr
21 GT Porsche 356 B / 1600 GS 1588 16.06.1960 D 1
71 GT Porsche 356 B / 2000 GS 1966 08.10.1962 D 3 BR
139 GT Porsche 356 C / 1600 SC 1582 05.09.1963 D 0
501 3 Porsche 356 C / 1600 SC 1582 01.01.1966 D 0
159 GT Porsche 904 GTS 1966 12.04.1964 D 4
282 B Porsche 911 Carrera 3164 01.06.1986 D 2
295 B Porsche 911 Carrera 2 3600 01.09.1990 D 3
294 B Porsche 911 Carrera 4 3600 01.09.1990 D 2
609 3 Porsche 911 E 1991 01.01.1969 D 2
3011 3 Porsche 911 E/T (2195 & 2341) 2195 01.04.1970 D 4 Cylinder capa.
579 3 Porsche 911 L Targa 1991 01.01.1968 D 1
547 3 Porsche 911 S 1991 01.11.1966 D 6
608 3 Porsche 911 S 1991 01.01.1969 D 3
3005 3 Porsche 911 S 2195 01.01.1970 D 0
3061 3 Porsche 911 S 2687 01.02.1974 D 3
3025 3 Porsche 911 S ( 2195 et 2341) 2195 01.04.1970 D 8
578 3 Porsche 911 S Targa 1991 01.01.1968 D 1
207 B Porsche 911 SC 2687 01.03.1982 D 11 ON 3062
3062 3 Porsche 911 SC 2687 01.02.1974 D 7
3062 B Porsche 911 SC 2687 01.02.1974 D 3 Tr
577 3 Porsche 911 T 1991 01.01.1968 D 4
607 3 Porsche 911 T 1991 01.01.1969 D 3
208 B Porsche 911 Turbo ( 2993) 1.4 4190 01.03.1982 D 10 ON 3076
645 4 Porsche 911 Turbo ( 2993) 1.4 4190 01.01.1976 D 0
3076 3 Porsche 911 Turbo ( 2993) 1.4 4190 01.01.1977 D 8
3076 B Porsche 911 Turbo ( 2993) 1.4 4190 01.01.1977 D 2 Tr
580 3 Porsche 912 Targa 1582 01.01.1968 D 0
626 4 Porsche 914 / 6 1991 01.03.1970 D 3
3042 3 Porsche 914 / 6 1991 01.10.1971 D 1 BR
672 4 Porsche 924 Carrera GT ( 1984) 1.4 2777 01.01.1981 D 4
203 B Porsche 924 Carrera GT (1984) 1.4 2777 01.01.1982 D 8 ON 672
660 4 Porsche 924 Turbo 2777 01.02.1979 D 1
3083 B Porsche 924 Turbo ( 1995) 1.4 2793 01.04.1979 D 3 Tr
3083 3 Porsche 924 Turbo (1984) 1.4 2778 01.04.1979 D 4
209 B Porsche 928 S 4664 01.03.1982 D 4 ON 3085
3085 3 Porsche 928 S 4664 01.11.1980 D 1
3085 B Porsche 928 S 4664 01.11.1980 D 0 Tr
283 B Porsche 928S 4597 01.06.1986 D 2
284 B Porsche 944 Turbo (2479) 1.4 3470 01.06.1986 D 3
226 4 Porsche Carrera 6 1991 01.05.1966 D 0
637 4 Porsche Carrera RS 2687 01.01.1973 D 5
3053 3 Porsche Carrera RS 2687 01.07.1973 D 18
290 B Premier 118 NE 1172 01.11.1987

Perhaps this helps.

Best,
Grady

thanks Grady, I know a bit about European Rallying.. these you may appreciate from a private Rally Car collection

Lancia - Stratos - S4 - 037



Of course the 959.. in company

[powella]

I was at an opc night a month or so ago where that had a great selection of rare cars, one of them was a 901 flat 8, apparently the only one!! but the car that caught my eye was rally car based on a 3.2. I couldn't believe how far the suspension could be made to raise!!

[AlexJ]

Maybe I didn't explain myself good enough...

For example, if you go here:
http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/CCA568173BC7A686C12577C000369F8A/$FILE/VoituresPays_Oct.2010.pdf

You can see that each manufacturer informs the international federation of the cars they want to homologate to entry the rallye events. Not every car from a manufacturer's range is eligible to enter a rally (only FIA events).

Although in some regional and national championships allow non homologated cars to enter the events, they run on a special categories and in most cases, they don't count for the general classification of the championship... sort of they can win any events but they cannot be champion.

Normally, if a manufacturer homologates a certain car, they are assuming that there will be some kind of development (selling a rally kit, developing the car officially or through a motorsport company specialized in rallys), to make it competitive on road racing (gravel or tarmac).

Each of the cars on that list has an homologation form, that we have to show at documental check on every event. On this document, you can find all the specifications and an extensive list of parts allowed to use (standard or specially developed) on cars, helping the marshals verifying the "conformity" of the car.

It is also stating on the list the limit date of that homologation. When they lose it, they are not on the list of the authorized vehicles to participate at the rally events.


Taking that in consideration, I assume that Porsche has also their homologated cars.
For example, at the FIA Historic rally events, you cannot just take a 911 that you build with any criteria and participate! Everyone has to respect the homologation form from the period those cars were homologated.

If I get a list of homologated rally Porsches, I will have the homologation numbers, easily will find a copy of the document and will manage to check which specific components were homologated at the period for each specific car!

Hope now everything is clear...

[djpateman]

In Grady Clay's list, the first # is the Homologation document # for a particular class.
Example:
Hom. 607
Grp 3
Make Porsche
Model 911 T
Cyl. 1991
Hom. Date 01.01.1969
ASN D
Ext 3
Observations

[djpateman]

[chris_seven]

Alex,

You will need a bit more information if you want to build a car that is truely competitive.

Firstly you will need to look carefully at Appendix K which does permit some detailed changes that were not available 'in period' depending on the Period of the specific car.

The 911 can be quite complex.

If you want to compete in the FIA Sporting Rally Championship - for example (as opposed to the Regularity Championship that is much easier in terms of car preparation) there are 3 Categories that you can enter.

Category 1 covers cars Holomogated up to the end of 1969. The regulations state that you can only enter cars in this Category that are classified as either Touring or Grand Touring, whih is basically Group 1 or Group 3.

I believe that this makes the1969 911S with MFI the most competitive car in this category as the Twin Plug Engine fitted in the 911T/R is only valid for Group 4 and hence not eligible.

Once you enter Category 2 and 3 you can use either Touring, Grand Touring or Competition Touring and Competition Grand Touring cars which means Group 2 and Group 4 cars can also be entered. This will allow the ST, 2.8 and 3.0 RSRs in Category 2 as well as the SC in Category 3.

There are two other issues that need considering. If you build a car to a specific set of Papers fopr Example a Period F 911 then it must conform with the Homolgated spec and would need Solex carbs. You will have to define the period of the Car to gain an HTP and be able to compete. Detailed changes in Appendix K will however allow you to run 906 cams.

Finally as well as Appendix K you will also need to look at Appendix J for the Period of your car as you will also be allowed to fit any modifications permitted by this Appendix and not all these details are clealry stated on the Homolgation Form.

For example a Grand Touring Car (Group 3) is permitted the same modifications as a Group 2 Touring Car.

This would mean if you prepare a 911S to Homologation Form 608 it is unlikely to be competitive as there are many changes that can be made which are not listed in the basic papers.

When you take part in an event you will need to carry not only the Homolgation Form but also an HTP and it is a good idea to also carry the relevant Appendix J.

It is a bit of a minefield and normally your local FIA Scrutineer should be able to help.

[AlexJ]

Thank you very much for your precious help!

Chris Seven thank you for your explanation. I don't really know about Historic/Classic rally cars although I have been rallying for 12 years on a Regional Championship. I know a little Appendix J and K...

My search for homologation forms is only in order to get some technical orientation on which aspects can be developed.
My intention is to build a 911 rally car. Still don't know exactly what I will build but firs I have to finish this project http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/556994-yes-forward-but-different.html, test it to be shure everything is ok, sell it to get some cash and then start all over again...

Our local championship rules are not too strict and we always have the chance, in case we are not able to follow the homologation form, to be eligible on a the same category (classics/historic) but not counting to the overall championship.

Sure this project will take some time because, unfortunately this is not my job.... hope one day it will be...

[rally911]

Alex,

I have a 1973 911 built in 2001 as a Group 5 car. I have been accumulating experience and expensive knowledge on what works better when it comes to building a true rally suspension for a US 911 that is going to rallied in the dirt.

[AlexJ]

Hi rally911

Nice car!
Although I am building a tarmac rally car, your car looks very simillar to what I am building (at the very beginig now)!
Which is the engine you are using?

[rally911]

I am running an 1988 3.2L bumped to a 3.4L, there is very little that is orginal on the rally car.

[AlexJ]

is there any thread where I can see more pics and technical info?