which 911 to purchase, SC or Carrera or....

[rpc356]

Hi, I'm new to the forum and am considering purchasing a 911. I've got some idea of which model(s) I'm interested in, but am looking for a bit of a sanity check.

Here is my intended use. This would be my daily driver, but since I'm retired and we often use my wife's car, my current daily driver only gets about 3k miles/yr. There are few times when I would have to drive it in bad weather, however, I don't want to be overly worried about rust if I have to take it out in the rain (or, worse yet, in slush as I live in No. Va, but that's probably avoidable). I'd also like to be able to do as much of the work as possible myself. I have done a fair amount of work on cars over my lifetime, and have had a 356 for a good number of years (hence the concern about rust, of course). E.g., I have no issues with pulling the motor and trans on the 356, though I have drawn the line at rebuilds to date.

So: reliable, not so prone to rust, easy to work on, and I'll throw in holds its value (and maybe even improves over time).

I've read a fair bit, and think that an SC sounds like it's the oldest 911 that fits the bill, given the galvanized sheet metal (maybe the 356 has given me an irrational fear of rust) and its reputation for reliability. I'm assuming "oldest" is synonymous with "easier to work on" -- not sure if that's correct.

It's been suggested that I look at the Carrera instead, because the fuel delivery system is simpler, more reliable (than CIS, though that's not to say the CIS is unreliable), and gets rid of a good bit of plumbing in the engine compartment (compared to the SC). And it shouldn't be any harder to work on than the SCs (true?).

So, SC or Carrera. Is there a big difference, really?

Oh, did I mention air conditioning? I assume I'll being doing an r134a conversion, no matter which I get.

--Richard

[Laneco]

If you can afford the Carrera with the G50, seems to be a very desirable one, with the Carrera and 915 lesser so (and also lesser money). The SC cars are great and of the three here, the least expensive.

None have great AC, but there are ways to make it pretty dang good. I like the heater on the carrera better than our SC's, just seems to push more air, especially a footwell blower model. Maybe all Carrera's have footwell blowers. But even on our carrera engine to SC transplant, the blower motor seems to push better.

As far as ease to work on, the Carrera fuel system is "cleaner" and in my humble opinion, generally easier to troubleshoot/repair. I will say that replacing the sensors at the back of the engine is a pain with the drivetrain in the car for a Carrera. There is a head temp, and near the center, top of the flywheel are two sensors. They can be replaced in the car, but you need a good measure of patience.

You won't go wrong with any of these three cars (carrera G50, carrera 915, or SC). You will like the snappier feeling carrera engines, and most people prefer the G50, but there is not a loser in this bunch.

Find the individual car you like, get a good PPI, and enjoy.

angela

[Boricua21]

First of all, Welcome to the Porsche madness...

SC or Carrera...Each has its own appeal. You couldn't go wrong with either one. Carreras cost a little bit more, especially the later ones with the G50.

Do your homework... Take your time and shop for the right model...and get a PPI from someone you trust if you are not mechanically gifted. I would rather have a mint SC over a tired Carrera anytime...

Or you can do what I did and put a 3.2 in my SC...

Good Luck...

[plumb4u2]

You have opened a can of worms cause you will get die hard SC and 3.2 fans tell you each is better
I have owned my Carrera for a year and love it though it is my first p-car so cant comment on SC
Either model will have little to no rust issue
If A/C is a big deal to you, you should consider 964 or 993 cause unless you remove and install totally new aftermarket kit you will probly not be happy, I removed my A/C but my car is a Targa and never drive with top on.(Strictly nice weather car)

I have done a lot of work on my car (maintenance and minor upgrades) and have enjoyed every second. Both models are very DIY friendly

[McLovin]

I use my 911 similar to what you are planning, although I don't drive it in the rain much.

I've owned many examples from '78 to '89. For my money, and DD or semi-DD use, I only own 87-89 Carreras now.

Why? B/c they are the newest of the 78-89 breed, and the G50 transmission is much nicer. Not only the trans itself, but the hydraulic clutch is a vast improvement over the cable and complex springing system of the 915 trans. As a bonus, you also get the larger AC vents, improved interior and seats, etc. over the earlier cars.

Now, the earlier ones can be fine, too. But if you look around, you can find 87-89 G50 cars for roughly the same price as earlier ones.

I would rule out the SC completely, though. There's just no reason to deal with the really, really old school CIS system these days. The Motronic on the Carrera is light years ahead as far as simplicity, diagnosis, reliability, parts, etc.

[Peter Zimmermann]

A previous post that you might enjoy reading...

This thread reminded me of a post that I responded to a few years ago. That thread involved someone who was advised by a shop to not purchase an SC, and encouraged to buy a 3.2 Carrera instead. I can’t find my post, but it was largely a cost/benefit study of the two cars, and went something like this based on hand-written scribbles in my file.

The newest SC is a 1983, the oldest 3.2 is an ’84, and a nice ’81 is only five years older than a good ’86. Needless to say, we’re not talking Model As and Mustangs. The first thing we do is throw out the comparables of the two models. The SC and Carrera, through ’86, all use the same clutch, and engine removal is no more difficult on one as the other. The ’87-89 3.2 cars use a different, more expensive, clutch. It is no more reliable, requires additional labor, and the flywheel, if worn, can’t be machined. I think that it’s safe to say that the clutch is a wash.

Starter motors, shock absorbers, tires, suspension components, brakes, etc., are pretty much the same on both models. SCs and ’84-86 Carreras use a clutch cable; ’87-89 Carreras use a slave cylinder and related hydraulics. Those items can be considered a wash because replacement frequency is similar.

Minor and major services on both models are fairly equal in both labor times, parts, and mileage periods; and life expectancy of alternators, motor mounts and oxygen sensors aren’t different enough to mention.

Let’s look at the “replace once in a blue moon” items. They are reference sensors (3.2), oxygen sensor relay (SC), auxiliary air valve (SC), injectors (both), decal valve (SC), idle control valve (3.2), and throttle switch (3.2). Another pretty equal category, I would have to say.

The biggie repairs are ones that a super-sized wallet can make easier. Each model has a glitch in this category; SCs (some, 1978-'81, more than others) suffer from broken cylinder head studs, and 3.2 cars (some) suffer from high oil consumption. Cost-wise those two jobs are comparable, both repairs are a cylinder heads off job, certainly close enough to not weigh one model against the other.

All SCs and the first three years of 3.2 cars use the same transmission, the 915, so that’s a wash. Enter the G 50, used in ’87-89 Carreras, that’s a bullet-proof unit that should last at least 250,000 miles. So, the ’87-89 cars edge ahead in our “race.” But wait a minute! The typical SC synchro repair will cost between $2000 and $3000 (more for a “rebuild”), while the typical 3.2 car with a G 50 will cost $5,000 - $8,000 more than a comparable condition SC to buy. Of course, you get power seats and improved A/C along with the great trans. But that, in my mind, is not sufficient cause to eliminate an SC (or ’84-86 Carrera) from consideration.

Let’s explore other typical repairs that SCs and 3.2 cars require over time. I’ll mention here that this is pretty consistent through 200K miles, beyond that many “repairs” become “restorations.” We’ll start with the famous SC airbox; replacement will set the SC owner back $1200 - $1400. On the flip side, the 3.2 Carrera’s air flow meter will fail in a way that the car will still run, but fail its annual/bi-annual smog inspection. Replacement is necessary; and the cost will be $800 - $900. CIS fuel injection (SCs) use a part called a Control Pressure Regulator, aka Warm-Up Regulator. The part is rarely replaced, most often when moisture has entered the car’s fuel system. With moisture present all bets are off for both models! The part is available for about $600, and labor/setup adds another $200. On the other side, 3.2 Carreras have a pair of engine compartment fuel lines that require replacement, which, including intake manifold R&I, will remove about $1,000 from your wallet. Back to the SCs, and a part called an accumulator which will cost about $350 (diagnosis and labor replacement is minimal). 3.2 Carreras have two relatively small issues, one can leave you stranded (DME relay); the other will make the car exhibit unusual symptoms (cylinder head temp sensor). The relay will cost you about $50, the sensor about $350 installed. So, at this point, repair costs are $2350 (SCs) and $2150 (3.2s). Have we got evidence yet that SCs should be avoided, or even be reduced to a second-tier car? I think not.

Upgrades. OK, Carrera tensioners. That’s about it, and so many SCs have had this done it’s almost like they were original equipment anyway. Yes, we can mention anti-roll bars with increased diameters, but don’t forget, if you “must do” them to an SC, you also must “upgrade” ‘84/85 Carreras with them also.

I think that this post clearly shows that either car (SC or Carrera) is worth consideration, and that for every potential purchase condition should be the overwhelming factor. Like I said earlier, we’re not talking Model As and Mustangs here.

[Kemo]

since its going to be a daily driver...in the rain AND you need A/C, looks like an 87-89 is going to be your ticket.

If you have the time and can find it... an 83 Euro, Non-Sunroof Coupe sure does sound good right about now

[Peter Zimmermann]

Originally Posted by Kemo

since its going to be a daily driver...in the rain AND you need A/C, looks like an 87-89 is going to be your ticket.

If you have the time and can find it... an 83 Euro, Non-Sunroof Coupe sure does sound good right about now ;)

Yep, but like in CA, Richard has to check on EPA/DOT certs and smog compliance for his state.

[rpc356]

I read over all the posts several times. Thanks for the thoughtful responses. While there were incremental improvements from the SC to the Carrera 915 to the Carrera G50, it's clear that, on balance, they are more similar than not, with relatively modest tradeoffs between them. The operative advice is, it's more important to get a nice example then to pick a specific model among these. And get a PPI.

That said, if I had the choice today between three comparably nice examples, one from each of SC/Carrera 915/Carrera G50, I lean slightly towards the Carrera 915 (ignoring initial cost as a factor). The extra hp from the 3.2 is nice to have, and it sounds like the Motronic is maybe a bit easier to diagnose and work on than the CIS.

Why 915 and not G50? A couple of reasons. First, in Va cars that are 25 model years old or older before January 1 of the current calendar year are exempt from emissions. That would be 1985 in 2011, or maybe 1986 if it is known to pass emissions this year to get me into the exemption next year. I just don't want to have to worry about that. Second, I'm a bit leery of the G50 clutch. To quote Peter, "It is no more reliable, requires additional labor, and the flywheel, if worn, can’t be machined." Hmmm. On the upside, there is the G50 itself, the hydraulic clutch pedal, and improved A/C.

Okay, so if I really had this choice today it would probably come down to color :^).

--Richard

[rpc356]

Regarding A/C, how much was it improved on the later Carrera's? Sounds like air movement was better, given the interior blowers, but was the A/C system itself improved? My working assumption so far is, to get reasonable A/C will require upgrading to r134a (somewhere in the $1k-$2k range).

Do the r134a upgrade systems actually hold a charge over the course of several years? Or is the leakage just cheaper to deal with than r12 (both environmentally and monetarily)?

--Richard

[rpc356]

Originally Posted by rpc356

My working assumption so far is, to get reasonable A/C will require upgrading to r134a

Or, as plumb4u2 suggested, just buy a newer car. But I like the body style of the older 911s and am willing to work on the A/C issue as long as there's a reasonable solution.

[Va_Powerman]

I grappled with this same decision last fall when looking for my first P-car in over 20 years.

I daily drive mine to the VRE station (I'm just south of you in Fredericksburg), and drive it daily to soccer practice, swim meets, etc. It is truly a daily driver - there is not a day that I don't drive it (including in our snow of last winter), and I've taken road trips of over 1000 miles with it as well.

I ended up finding, and purchasing, an '85 euro targa. I shot for the '85 year due to the Va emissions, and was fortunate/lucky in finding the euro version (IMHO). While condition-wise the vehicle is fairly rough (p/o kept it parked outside, uncovered - dash, paint, etc are showing age), the relatively low mileage (86k) and lower cost (due to rough condition) sold me on it. My ac came with the belt off, and honestly, I haven't messed with it...with the targa off, and appropriate amounts of skinny pedal, I've found that our heat hasn't hit unbearable just yet.

So, FWIW, I would recommend the carrera w/ the 915 - I really enjoy mine!

[Jim Richards]

Richard, if your budget can stand it, I suggest you also consider a nice 964 C2. One that has been well maintained. Good A/C for those hot/humid NoVA summers. Unfortunately, they're not as plentiful as SCs or Carreras.

[Swoboda]

When I was searching, I went through this same process. I ultimately purchased a 1985 Carrera Targa.

I'm happy with the 1985 model because it has the Motronic system (which is reliable and flexible) and has some character with the 915 transmission. This is a car on which I can perform some modest maintenance (which I enjoy) without too much trouble.

The SCs I drove were fun. My targa is a little heavier, but still very fun and enjoyable to drive.

Best of luck in your search!

[Barrpete]

Originally Posted by rpc356

Regarding A/C, how much was it improved on the later Carrera's? Sounds like air movement was better, given the interior blowers, but was the A/C system itself improved? My working assumption so far is, to get reasonable A/C will require upgrading to r134a (somewhere in the $1k-$2k range).

Do the r134a upgrade systems actually hold a charge over the course of several years? Or is the leakage just cheaper to deal with than r12 (both environmentally and monetarily)?

--Richard

I think it was the 86 model (or possibly 85?) where Porsche made changes to the dash and added additional vents for the AC that improved the air flow. As far as upgrades to the AC you can change to 134a but to minimize leakage you need to change to barrier hoses. In 2006 I replaced my entire AC system and switched to 134a. This year is the first time I've had to recharge the system.

There are many, many options when it comes to AC upgrades and several companies that make systems designed for specifically for 911s. See this thread to get an idea of how many options are out there:
Ultimate AC Thread

[GH85Carrera]

The biggest reason I would recommend against the SC is the difficulty in finding alcohol free gas. Alcohol makes the likelihood of water problems much higher. If you can't find a source of pure gas I would be leery of the SC for that reason alone.

[rpc356]

Originally Posted by Barrpete

I think it was the 86 model (or possibly 85?) where Porsche made changes to the dash and added additional vents for the AC that improved the air flow. As far as upgrades to the AC you can change to 134a but to minimize leakage you need to change to barrier hoses. In 2006 I replaced my entire AC system and switched to 134a. This year is the first time I've had to recharge the system.

How much was it to replace the entire system? I assume you did most/all of the work yourself. Just trying to get some ballpark idea.

Originally Posted by Barrpete

There are many, many options when it comes to AC upgrades and several companies that make systems designed for specifically for 911s. See this thread to get an idea of how many options are out there:
Ultimate AC Thread

Thanks, Pete. That will keep me in reading material for awhile. As with many things, there are a host of options and a good dollop of contradictory opinions. All part of the process.

--Richard

[rpc356]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

The biggest reason I would recommend against the SC is the difficulty in finding alcohol free gas. Alcohol makes the likelihood of water problems much higher. If you can't find a source of pure gas I would be leery of the SC for that reason alone.

Glenn, what specifically is the issue? I assume it's water getting into the CIS and causing damage.

--Richard

[Barrpete]

Richard,

I installed the Rennaire System II plus desert duty front condensor available from our host
Pelican Parts - Product Information: RA-SYS-TWO-DD-SAN
I did the install myself over a couple weekends. I'm pleased with the results. It was like 112 here the other day and it worked just fine. Not as well as my Chevy truck, but I wasn't sticking to the seat either.

Oh, the only part I didn't replace was the decklid condensor.

[GH85Carrera]

Originally Posted by rpc356

Glenn, what specifically is the issue? I assume it's water getting into the CIS and causing damage.

--Richard

Yes. The CIS system is just very sensitive to water.

I can tell you that a 85 Carrera with 100% stock air conditioning in perfect working order is not horrible. It will keep you from sweating in HOT weather, it will never make you cold. I upgraded my AC system with a Dual Khuel system from Griffiths. His stuff is not cheap but it flat out works, and the instructions are the best step by step instructions I have ever seen. Now it will actually get cold! It was 98 degrees at lunchtime today. The vent temps were at 40 degrees on max blow. It is about to get the ultimate test next month. I am driving to Savannah GA in August!