Don't like the 996 or Boxter ? Ok you design it.

[autobonrun]

First don't take this as a negative posting, it's not. Maybe someone with contacts in Porsche will see your suggestions and listen. I've read lots of interesting posts about what they don't like about the 996 and Boxter. Often times it is easier to list the things that you don't like about a design rather than designing something yourself. I would be interested in what you would like to see as the future design for the 911 (and Boxter for that matter) that would restore it to the lineage where you think it should be?

Round headlights? Taller fenders? Air cooled? The old sound? Oil leaks? What?

Just keep in mind that hand building cars these days is probably out and your guidelines would be the same as I'm sure the Porsche engineers have; profitability and price competitiveness. Also, if you go back to the old look will this lead to the complaint that we use to read that the design was "dated"?

I thought Mazda took a step in the right direction years ago when they introduced the Miata. Relatively inexpensive, a blast to drive, and with lots of parts available to tweek it the way you want.

I like the air cooled thing, but it doesn't have to be. Just a no-compromise sports car with a trunk big enough for a picnic basket would be perfect.

What bugs me the most about Porsche today is their lack of interest in racing. Build 996's and 986's and even that stupid SUV thing...Just race them! And race them to win!

[pwd72s]

Apples and Oranges. I'm not an automotive designer. But I'm sure as hell a consumer. That allows me the luxury of saying what I like or don't like about product design...and the ultimate vote count is unit sales. I don't like the 996 OR the Boxster. I won't be buying either, new OR used.

[This message has been edited by pwd72s (edited 07-17-2001).]

[Obin Robinson]

Originally posted by autobonrun:
Round headlights? Taller fenders? Air cooled? The old sound? Oil leaks? What?

just a point of reference, you can't air cool the engines or they won't be alowed for sale in many countries due to either noise or pollution regulations. if they kept air cooling the engines, we'd be buying our Porsches from GM, Ford, or Daimley Chrysler, not from Porsche.



me? i love the 996 as is. the 986 is fine too.

obin

[pbs911]

Just put the 996 drive train in the 993 and shave about 1000 lbs.

[autobonrun]

Originally posted by pwd72s:
Apples and Oranges. I'm not an automotive designer. But I'm sure as hell a consumer. That allows me the luxury of saying what I like or don't like about product design...and the ultimate vote count is unit sales. I don't like the 996 OR the Boxster. I won't be buying either, new OR used.

[This message has been edited by pwd72s (edited 07-17-2001).]

I must respectfully disagree that we are talking apples and oranges. You are entirely correct that consumers can say what they like or dislike. There is never a shortage of people willing to do that. I think you'll find it one hell of a lot easier to list your likes and dislikes rather than suggest real changes and improvements for the dislikes.
Also, you don't have to be an automobile designer or engineer to describe what you would like to see modified and provide suggestions. The best ideas often come from those not directly connected to a project, and who don't have the formal training that tells them "you can't do that" or "that will never work".
The problem is that making recommendations requires thought. Listing likes and dislikes doesn't require nearly as much. With your background in Porsche ownership, I'm sure you have some good ideas of what changes Porsche should make. But like everything else, that's just my opinion.

[michaelw]

Obviously the 911 is moving further away from what alot of us would like to see. Hate to say it, but someone made a good point about everyone hating newer successive generations of 911's. I feel the 993 was the best made, hands down.

But, what I would like to see oddly enough, and don't laugh, would be a $30,000 roadster of some sort, that was very basic, mid engined, weighing about 2500lbs, smaller than current 911 obviously and powered by a 3 liter flat six engine. Maybe they could call it a 914 or something.

My opinion!
Michael
87 targa

[rscupper]

Autobonrun - I appreciate your pragmatism. In matters of design it is very difficult for most people to define their likes and dislikes, much less muster the patience and focus to create practical alternatives. I do architectural design work, but now I'm going to start sketching some cars for fun. Thanks for the spark.

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Brian
'73RS (soon)

[Doug Zielke]

There are some nice, pure, lines exhibited in the Boxster. And as many have pointed out before, quite reminiscent of another famous Porsche design....






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'81 SC Coupe (aka: "Blue Bomber")
Canada West Region PCA
The Blue Bomber's Website

[Bill Verburg]

The 996 and Boxster will get better in the same way that the 911 series got better. Each generation gets better more powerful engines, curvier bodies and better suspension/wheels/tires/brakes. the factory knows that the $ comes from gradual improvement, keep em wanting more. Look at 911's from 64 thru 98.

[BRAINIAC]

Move the turn/corner marker lights down into the bumper. This will give us back the round headlights. Change the dash back to something at least vaguely resembling the original and I'm a happy camper.

Now here is what bothers me about the 996 mechanically. The 36/64 front to rear weight distribution. That's ridiculous. Lengthen the wheelbase and shorten the F/R overhangs. It looks like a Firebird in that regard.

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Tyson Schmidt
72 911 Cabriolet
92 C-2 Cabriolet

[Jack Olsen]

That side-by-side comparison for the Boxster and the 550 really illustrates the lame series of decisions made in the Boxster 'update.'

The old design is really great, in particular the balance between the front and back sections. It's a low-slung, graceful-looking car. A classic the day it came out, and a classic to this day.

The Boxster, on the other hand, throws front to rear balance out the door )I'm talking visual balance here, not weight distrivution). Instead of something that looks sly, menacing and vaguely feline, you've now got a misshapen model with fat thighs in the back, and little, whithered front fenders -- sort of like the tiny front arms of a Tyrannosaurus Rex.

Where the 550 design looks, even at a standstill, like the car is leaping forward, the new design always looks like it just missed its exit and is hitting the brakes.

The rear reflectors are too high and too far forward, making the back look disproportionately fat. The big hump over the engine contributes to an overall wedge shape, with the headlights pushed down and back and the front bumper kind of bucktoothed -- it looks like the car's sneaking a look underneath a door, scared of coming into the room. The 550, on the other hand, looks like it's at full stride -- a really gorgeous car design.

People hide behind the notion that whatever new ideas auto designers come up with are somehow a fait accompli -- that if you don't like this year's fashion, you're a nostalgic fool who's looking backwards and thumbing your nose at innovation and improvement and the march of progress.

That's stupid, if you ask me. A beautiful car is a beautiful car, whether it's forty years old or forty weeks old. The new Ferrari Modena is a very nice looking design, and a very contemporary one. The new Boxster would have looked lame 40 years ago, just as it looks lame today.

And don't get me started on the 996. I've used up enough bandwidth on that focus-group, and accountant-memo inspired design already.

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Jack Olsen
My Rennlist home page • My Pelican Gallery page • My Porsche Owners Gallery page

[This message has been edited by JackOlsen (edited 07-17-2001).]

[3liter914-6]

I would buy one of these in a heartbeat, but those closer to Porsche than I have repeatedly stated that Porsche considers the Boxster its "entry-level" (I consider it over-priced) model. From what I have read, look to VW for a car as you described (but sans flat-6 no doubt). In a recent BusinessWeek it was noted (I forget if it was by a VW official or not) that VW lacks a niche sports car/roadster. They certainly have the parts in the bin. I don't care whether they make it a VW or Porsche (I would love to see a "New 914"), but make it RWD, Mid-engine, ~$30,000, and give it the VW/Audi 1.8T. These things would sell like hotcakes. Why doesn't VW/Porsche listen to me?

Originally posted by michaelw:
Obviously the 911 is moving further away from what alot of us would like to see. Hate to say it, but someone made a good point about everyone hating newer successive generations of 911's. I feel the 993 was the best made, hands down.

But, what I would like to see oddly enough, and don't laugh, would be a $30,000 roadster of some sort, that was very basic, mid engined, weighing about 2500lbs, smaller than current 911 obviously and powered by a 3 liter flat six engine. Maybe they could call it a 914 or something.

My opinion!
Michael
87 targa

[Jack Olsen]

Viewed another way, the Boxster looks a lot like a carp, in one of those decorative pools.

There, I'm done.

[autobonrun]

Originally posted by rscupper:
Autobonrun - I appreciate your pragmatism. In matters of design it is very difficult for most people to define their likes and dislikes, much less muster the patience and focus to create practical alternatives. I do architectural design work, but now I'm going to start sketching some cars for fun. Thanks for the spark.

I'd like to see what you come up with. I agree it is very difficult to define likes and dislikes. But with the brains I've seen on this board, I would love to see a list of recommended changes get sent to Porsche. What could it hurt?

I think it would be interesting if you could take a early 70's 911, a 911SC, a late 80's/early 90's Carrera, and a 993 then superimpose images over one another in various percentages from front, rear, top and side views using computer imagery. I don't have the skill to do this but think it would be fun if you could. Boy would I be shocked if the resulting output was a 996.

Thinking outside the norm is the key. For example, one of the earlier postings mentioned the noise and emission limitations in certain countries. This makes sense, so I started thinking, is there a synthetic fluid other than water/antifreeze that has better heat transfer characteristics but doesn't insulate the engine sound as much? Personally, the engine sounds are one of the biggest things I miss. Just rambling.

[andyu911]

Look what Lotus is producing now. Not nescessary be "retro", but keeping the design idea. A light well engineered race car like the current Elise. Too bad they don't sell it here. I saw one in PIR and it's beautiful. It was the Sport 190 with factory roll bar. I would take that instead of 996 anytime.
In the mean time, I'm still having fun with my Carrera.
Andy

[RaF944]

I think the back of the 996 is awesome. It needs some work on the front but i would buy a 996 if i could afford it. I think its an awesome car.

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85.5 Porsche 944

[Wayne 962]

I certainly don't see any resemblence of the Boxster to the 550, except that they are the same color...

-Wayne

[911racer]

Ok guys, when you build a race car, the first thing you do is to read the rules book. Once you have all the consraint parameters, then you get on with the job of designing/building the racer.
Designing a road car is the same. The list of constaints can fill a library: financial constraints, manufacturing constraints, environmental constraints (propably a foreign idea to the Bush followers), legal constraints and ultimately the "Yankee factor" (idiotic lawmakers and ambulance-chasing lawyers that want you to pay for their client's incompetence/stupidity). With all of that behind you, the "window of opportunity" becomes very small indeed. Designing a "pure" car is nowadays nearly not possible. Many of the styling features/directions on cars are there as an attempt to cover the "hard points". That is also true for Porsche. Ultimately, we also have to design a car that sells. That covers the basics.
Now for a few personal opinions: A large portion of this 911 board's members are from the older 911 SC fraternity. That's ok by me, but some of the more retentive ones are also the loudest critics. I always ask myself if those individuals would (or could) ever buy a new Porsche. If the answer is no, then I honestly don't care much for their opinion, since we then don't have to design a car for them.
For the rest of you with valid criticism: we cannot please everybody all the time, but I think that we have done good progress in that direction. We are selling more Porsches than ever before. Certainly that must be a sign that we are doing something right (at least from a commercial point of view).
Regarding Porsche's lack of big-league racing, I agree that it sucks. Unfortunately, the way that I read the signs, there won't be anything major for a while to come. That's not just Wiedeking's decision, Piech (VW) owns a major share of Porsche and he will not let Porsche race against his Audis and Bentleys.
The loss of the air-cooled engines was a sad occurrence, but nothing is forever. Firstly, the air-cooled engines were very, very expensive to build. Secondly, we need 4-valve technology (emissions etc.) and that is not feasible with the air-cooled heads. Cooling problems/cracks between the valves.
Many of you wish for a small Porsche roadster. Well, Grant Larson is a big 550 fan, and that was his inspiration for the Boxster prototype. Small and light. Guess what happened then: the "needs" from the USA killed everything small and light. You have yourself to blame for that.
But all is not lost. We have listened to some of the critique and we will incorporate that in the next model line.
In the mean time, you all enjoy your Porsches, be they new or old.
Regards
Stef
ps: JackOlsen, you must be a real bitter and twisted person.

[Obin Robinson]

911racer, i think you hit the nail on the head with that one.

i remember reading something to the effect of Porsche saying:

"If it's an air cooled engine you want, then don't worry because there's a million of them out there for you to choose from."

i have no problems with the 996. many older 911 owners can ***** about what they don't like about the car, but they seem to forget that there was a million happy "transaxle" Porsche owners that were absolutely infuriated to see the 968 and 928 go. what did we do?

we got over it.

obin