Engine number question

only1buck · 08-22-2011, 08:28 PM

I have a 1973 911 E Targa.

The engine number is 6235579.

I am trying to determine if it is period correct for the car. I do know that it is not original to the car based on the COA received from Porsche.

Joe Bob · Joe Bob's Garage

Red Book, 1973E, 6230001-6232125, 5 speed. engine type 911/52
Sportos, 6239001-6239319......911/62.

Sure of that number?

only1buck · 08-22-2011, 08:56 PM

I have gone back and looked at multiple times, the sequence is so far out of the range.

The casting number on the bottom of the engine is 901.101.102.7R I don't know if that helps.

Would you know where the engine type number is located on the engine?

Thank you...

Joe Bob · Joe Bob's Garage

Engine type is stamped and usually lighter appearing that the engraved serial number.

The engine number is as below or on the vertical fin to the left. A good flashlight will help.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads18/enginenum1305478233.jpg

only1buck · 08-22-2011, 09:24 PM

I located the engine type number (thank you)...it indicates 911/91 which based on the Red Book would mean it is a 1973 911 T motor correct?....but the problem is the engine number is not with the range...the engine number is 6235579 ... the 623 would indicate it is a 1973 911 E motor but the 5579 sequence number does not fit for a 1973 911 E but it does fit for a 1973 911 T ... but the first three digits would then need to be 613 ... I see this all on page 33 of the Red Book

only1buck · 08-22-2011, 10:10 PM

Would these pictures help?

kugelfischer · 08-23-2011, 12:20 AM

Nice clean engine! The green fan shroud would have come on an E motor, where the T shrouds were yellow. Since your engine has obviously been worked on, this could have easily been changed. Check the MFI pump type number stamped on the top silver plate. A "T" pump will end with the last 3 digits 015. An E pump will end in 014
Also, poke your head under the car and check to see if your cylinders are cast iron (T) spec.

Hope this helps and good luck with your investigation.
Maybe post a close up shot of the engine serial so we can tell if the second digit looks like it's been altered.

Grady Clay · 08-23-2011, 03:49 AM

Steve,

Please post images of the engine number and type number.
Try and get the clearest ones possible.

I agree with Pelican kugelfischer, look at the MFI pump numbers and cylinders.
With the cylinders, there are four possibilities: iron (2.2/2.4 911T), Biral (2.2/2.4 911E & S), Nikasil (2.7RS or 2.8RSR) and ‘Nickies’.
There are also possibilities of other 2.7 cylinders (Nikasil or Alusil with J&E or other pistons).
The four are visually different from under the engine and the Mahle or Schmidt trademarks are visible.

Look at the casting dates on the cylinder heads (visible from the underside).

Measure the ID of the plastic intake ‘stacks’? This will give a clue.

Measure the cam timing. This will give a clue.

What is the chassis VIN?
Are all the numbers in place (including door jamb decal)?
Please post images.

Very nice engine and 911, whatever it turns out to be.

I see a few small items.
There are inconsistent (and probably incompatible) parts with the fan hub and outer pulley half.
You have the later fan hub (small holes) and the early (large holes) pulley half.
This prevents the fan tool from engaging the fan hub so the torque of restraining the assembly is through the flats on the pulley – not ideal.
Better (but not period correct) is to get the later (small hole) single-shiv, 80-83 mm pulley half and use the later (pin-spanner) tool.
Best, you can make an ‘improved’ tool that engages all eight small holes in both the pulley half and fan hub.
Depending on your crankshaft pulley, this pulley ratio turns the engine cooling fan faster.

This is a later (larger) alternator.
The fan housing casting number does not indicate which (of three) part-numbers this is but it must be non-’73 in order to fit.
Fan housings
Important is the belt aligns.

The ‘Bosch blue coil’ is not usually combatable with the original 3-pin Bosch CDI.
What CDI is in place?
If original 3-pin Bosch, use the original ‘ignition transformer’.

I see an ‘early’ big (2-bolt) fan strap, not original for a type 911/91.
The ‘emissions’ decal for the strap was the same 911T,E,S.

I see a missing clamp (yellow arrow below) for the temperature sender wire.

Don’t leave your (of local manufacture) MFI main mixture adjustment tool (red arrow) in place – ever.
If you forget and crank the engine, bad things can happen.

This nut (green arrow) was not originally a Nylock and there are some washers missing under the nut and electrical connector.

You might source an un-modified (teal arrow) rear tin.
I like the non-Carrera chain tensioners – looks best.
When you have the opportunity, check for the ‘Turbo tensioner’ update.
I suspect it is in place as someone who knew his business did this engine.

Does your 911 have the optional front oil cooler system?
If so, is it original or from a later 911?

It is important to figure out the engine displacement, compression ratio (CR) and cams in order to decide on cooling issues.
If in doubt, more cooling is better.

Please post more images, car included.
Looks great.

Best,
Grady

only1buck · 08-23-2011, 04:20 AM

Grady,

Thank you for responding. I will provide additional details/pictures this evening.

In the meantime attached are other pictures of the engine.

Thank you,

Steve

Grady Clay · 08-23-2011, 07:40 AM

Steve,

Great images – nice clear focus.

Critical is a missing Norma-Schellen (N-S) type hose clamp (red arrow) for the cold start hose at the cold start solenoid.
When the cold start solenoid operates, this hose sees full fuel pressure (~0.8 bar) and can push the hose off the smooth ‘barb’.

The other connections in the cold start hose system are the ‘pinch-type’ clamps, semi-permanently crimped in place.
Be very careful with the plastic ‘tees’ and the plastic fittings at the individual stacks.

I see a throttle linkage ball-socket (yellow arrow) with the provision for a ‘safety pin’.
This is either a race part or a longer, later part.
Once everything is properly adjusted and running correctly, it is useful to install the safety pin.

The heated rear window electrical connection (teal arrows) is disconnected.
Once connected, these wires were ‘stuffed’ under the electric panel.

What CDI and voltage regulator are these (violet circle)?
I would have expected the later/larger alternator to have an integral voltage regulator.
Is this regulator connected to the system?
This aftermarket CDI may very well work perfectly with the ‘Bosch blue coil’.

You have some of the provision (green arrow) for the warm air intake system.
Do you have the other parts to the system?
Depending on your intent, you might consider sourcing these parts.
While not necessary for proper operation of the engine, they are a unique part of MFI history used on ’72-’73 911T,E,S, the 2.7RS and the 3.0RS.

I don’t see a braided ground strap for your deck lid and the license plate wiring harness should have a small metal spring-clip retaining the harness to the deck lid hinge.

The measurement of the stacks ID should be just below the sharp transition (yellow double-arrow below).
There is a list here on Pelican of the various diameters and their application.
There is noticeable difference between 911T, 911E and 911S. The outside diameter (OD) differs also.
My lame ol’ eye says these are 911T stacks.

Be sure to carefully inspect the stacks, seal and the underside of the plastic air filter assembly for signs of prior fire damage.
Make sure the seals actually seal.

I see a later (longer) throttle ball-socket piece (teal arrow).

You have a very nice rejuvenation/restoration.
Even the cad(?) plating is closer to original than most.
My goal is to help you (if you want) to have someone who worked with these new to not spot anything out of place.
This is also useful for others’ projects.

Best,
Grady

kugelfischer · 09:59 AM

As always Grady you have a great set of eyes for detail. I caught about 75% of the points you mentioned and appreciate learning the other 25% from your detailed responses.

The engine does look well thought, out if not 100% original it seems to have been put together by a good wrench. I'll be interested in learning the serial # stamping issue along with the stack ID and pump #.
I bet she runs as good as she looks.

Cheers
Kent

djpateman · 08-23-2011, 10:42 AM

I believe that 6235579 may be a typo and should be 6135579. This is consistent based on the 911/91 type # and the 901.101.102.7R casting #.

Grady Clay · 08-23-2011, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djpateman

I believe that 6235579 may be a typo and should be 6135579. This is consistent based on the 911/91 type # and the 901.101.102.7R casting #.

I agree.
I would still like to see images of the numbers.

Best,
Grady

RatBox · 12:00 PM

I hope it does not look anything like this :

Makes things a bit muddled to determine. Even though the 4th digit certainly looks like a 4 .......the only thing that made sense is that it was a 1 (and the factory worker was completely drunk).

As there were only 1985 1972 911E cars produced (1244 coupes / 861 targas). And it had a 2.4 E type number stamped in the case also.

There are some strange things floating around out there .