factory short shift locking in 5th
 

OK, I have done several searches on this and have come up empty handed.

while replacing all the bushings in my (new to me '84 carrera) shift linkage, I decided to replace the aftermarket short shift kit with a factory short shift kit as well (ordered form host). Everything was pretty straightforward except something just isn't right. When I shift the the lever into 5th gear position I cant pull it out anymore. The lock pawl that prevents shifting into reverse, will not go back far enough to allow the tabs on the shift lever and lock pawl plate to clear one another (see photo below). Anyone have an idea of what might be wrong? First time I have done this but I am (pretty) confident everything went back together as it should.

Thanks,
Stumped!

PS. I also noted that the shift pivot housing (fork) and shift lever out of the kit had about 2mm play, which is curious as all the threads I have read mention having to relieve the interference fit. I pressed the housing together somewhat to create a light interference.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1316318137.jpg

I had an issue with sticking in 5th as well. The problem was that the lever didn't go far enough forward to put the reverse gate into the correct position. I had to loosen up the shift coupler and give myself just a bit more forward angle. Now it works like a champ. Hopefully this helps!

No, I don't even have the housing mounted in the car yet. I just finished putting the assembly together and can't get it out of 5th gear position on the bench. Thanks for quick feedback though.
Scott

grind to clear? they may not make them like they used to. is the tab the same width on your original shifter?

Pretty sure it's the coupler as mentioned.....bet if you put the old shifter back it will have the same problem as well.

+1 Coupler Reset.

No...

And, no...

He hasn't even installed it in the car yet, so there's no way the coupler can affect it.

doppel,

What parts did you change, where was the play exactly and how did you modify the housing?

JR

Something's not right if it is getting stuck. Did you use the correct springs? If I remember right, the short shift springs are shorter.

If you used the longer springs, there might be too much tension in the system.

is the fork right side up? IIRC the curved part is top.

confirm -shifter housing is not installed in the car, just assembled all parts and is still on the workbench.

I replaced all the parts that come in the factory short shift kit from pelican (911 424 931 00) which is essentially everything in the housing (except the pin locking clips, locking pin for adjusting for and aft play of the shift pivot housing / fork and a few nuts and washers)

The only part I modified was the shift pivot housing (also called fork or cage). There was about 2mm of play between it and the shift lever, so I squeezed it a bit to create a slight interference, just bowed the walls inward a bit.

The tab on the shift lever is quite a bit wider than the tab on the previously installed short shifter and the locking pawl geometry looks a little different??. I don't feel comfortable grinding the tab or modifying the factory shift kit, as my expectation would be that all these "factory" parts should work together.

did you replace the pivot pin?

reason I ask is I have 4 of these sitting on my bench and was showing someone when we realized one pin was slightly longer from the groove to the end - all I could think of is that MAYBE the FSSK uses a slightly different length due to the change in height to the spring cage thing????

just a thought?

Sorry, I thought it was in the car already...

How hard was it to push it into 5th? Did you have to push hard against the springs? Is the reverse lockout physically blocking it from returning (the lever can move freely back and forth but stops at the lockout)?

If it is friction that is sticking it in 5th (unable to move the lever at all), then I would look at loosening up the allen screw that holds the shift pivot housing. It could also be the springs pushing the lever against the top plate tab, in that case, you would simply need to force it back.

You need to take a good look at it and try to figure out where it is blocked/sticking. It is a pretty simple mechanism. We just need a bit more info to help you out.

Did you install all the components contained in the factory SS kit? They look like this:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1316366134.jpg

Compare and confirm. If you don't use the correct components, the shifter may not work correctly.

BTW, the reverse lock pawl merely rotates on the rivet and reacts to block movement into reverse when the lever moves directly from fifth but not from neutral. Something else is preventing the lever from moving. I suspect something is amiss with the relative position between the return spring plate (5 o'clock) and the pivot pin.

Sherwood

Sherwood, I replaced all of those parts, mine look "more or less" like those in your image, thanks.

I am experiencing a mechanical lock out of parts (no friction issues). In the 2 pictures below, the shift lever is as far back as it will go trying to exit the 5th gear position. In one of the photos you can see that the pawl is rotated back far back as it will go and in the other foto that the tabs won't clear one another by about 2mm, ergo locked! In addition to this it looks as if the tab on the shift lever is quite a bit higher than it should be ? opinions? I am now wondering if I got a "monday" kit and the tab was welded on wrong or simply too wide. Johnny walker's suggestion below of grinding the tab would allow the lever to exit the locked position, but I am wary of doing this as am not sure if the other geometry is correct. How much clearance (max) should ther be between the tabs when pulled all the way back?

Other suggestions:
- springs and pin are out of the kit, I assume they are correct, but don't know for sure.
- hump on the fork/cage is facing up

Thanks for all the quick help.

scotthttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1316370522.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1316370563.jpg

Since the housing is off the car, look at how the pivot pin interfaces with the spring plate. Can you snap a photo and post?

While factory and factory short shift components are more or less similar, the parts in discussion are not exactly the same wherein lies a potential source for your issues. Compare the spring plate with the one you removed. It's different - should be.

I wager if you remove the pivot pin, all will be well. Then it's a matter of discovering why there's unintended interference.

The relative height of the lever arm-to-carrier plate tab looks normal.

Sherwood

In looking at those pics, it looks like the tab on the lever is much too wide. Is your pivot pin housing as far forward as it can go? In the first pic, it looks like there is some room between it and the shifter housing. If it can move forward more, then that will change the angle of the lever and may be enough to clear.

Otherwise, I'm going to agree with John Walker that the tab on the lever needs to be ground down a bit.

Could the pivot "cage" be installed upside down? The steel box the lever goes through that keeps it centered in the aluminum housing?

I made that mistake a few months ago...I don't know if I had this issue but I discovered it when the ball on the bottom of the shifter was nowhere near the rod in the tunnel.

I can't figure out how the pin and the spring guide plate would affect this issue, I think it is just between the pawl lock plate and the shift lever. I attempted a picture of the interaction of spring guide plate and pin.

The pivot pin housing is as far forward as it will go (except for the washer) and is adjusted for tension, the photo is a bit misleading.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1316373183.jpg

Sherwood, spring plate is different than the original, looks like foto you posted.

I just went and look at my car. I think the problem is your pawl seems to not be rotating all the way. As you pull the shifter down from 5th gear, the pawl should rotate counterclockwise to allow your shifter to clear the tab at the top. Yours (first photo a few post above this) seems to stop rotating with the shifter not even in the middle of its up/down range of movement.

oops my bad. Nevermind :D

since this is not installed in the car...when you say it's sticking is it just you movining it while everything is being held with your hands..the spring tension may be all you are fighting and if it was mounted securely that might go away..I have found these things hard to hold and move thru the gears all at once while not in the car...

any other "sticking" (like Reverse)

If you look at his pawl, it is rotated all the way. The pawl will only rotate until it hits the tab on the top plate. When it hits this point, the tab on lever needs to be clear of the other tab.

I would measure the width of tab on your original lever and see if it is different from this lever.

The tab is definitely wider than the aftermarket lever I had on there! The tab measures 20.5mm on my FSS lever. Is someone willing to measure the tab on their FSS lever?
Thanks,
Scott

21mm. I would try moving the whole fork/shifter part back a little. It should be riding on a couple of pins.

My stock (non short shift) tab measures 16.25mm.

Hi ,
I would be interested to see what the outcome is as I also have the same issue. When in 5th I have a 50/50 chance of it sticking. Again fssk that was already fit by previous owner.
Thanks
Nick

if you had ground the tab sufficiently to clear, you would be driving by now. don't over-analyze it.

imo
Try mounting the assembly in the car so you can have leverage to push the shifter into 5th gear. Holding the assembly while fighting the spring on the bench is tough.

The wider width of the "arm" on the factory short shift lever is of no consequence as it goes around the 5th and reverse carrier tabs. The lever, not the arm, contacts the reverse lock pawl. If the arm must be narrowed, there's something amiss. The WM shift lever uses a thinner-than-normal arm - again, of no consequence.

From fifth gear, the reverse lock pawl rotates CC until it stops against the carrier plate rev. tab. This prevents the money shift into reverse from fifth. However, once in neutral, the lever is now able to bump the lock pawl out of the way if selecting reverse.

If the lever is locked in fifth due to the rev. lock pawl, that means you've run out of range to shift into neutral (no where to go. i.e. the initial adjustment was on the ragged edge). Loosen the shift coupler, then adjust the fore-aft location of the shift lever. It should be vertical in the neutral position and midway in all directions within the shift housing opening. Sometimes, one can install the fork (houses the lever) such that the spacers on one end and the threaded adj. pin offsets the box in the shift housing and thus affects gear selection.

Note: Place reference marks on the shift tube and shift coupler before you begin in case you wish to return to the starting point, if needed.

Sherwood

Amen!!!

your coupler is not adjusted properly

remember guys the shift housing is not installed. The lever is locked in 5th position and the only solution I see from the current situation is to grind down the shift lever tab so that it clears the tab on the pawl lock plate. The engineer in me wants to find the root cause of this problem so it can be fixed rather than "grind to fit". In my opinion, root cause can only be one of 3 things:

1) Misassambled - which I think we have ruled out.
2) Wrong parts - which I am still unsure of but unlikely as the entire FSS kit was installed and the housing matches the vehicle.
3) Parts manufactured out of spec - which is what I now suspect and would probably be of interest to the guys at Pelican.

Thanks for all the help,
Scott

4: remove the pivot pin and lift the shift lever clear...try this again from stage 1

Looks like the tab may be manufactured incorrectly. I'll have my supplier take a look at this thread tomorrow. I think there was a time in the past when the tab was welded on the wrong side of the shifter on some of these, so it wouldn't surprise me if there was a problem with the actual piece.

-Wayne

Outstanding Service Wayne! See you up in Monterey Soon :D

Scott,
Where's it interfering?
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1316421620.jpg

If the lever is already hitting the rubber buffer plate on the right side (other side of carrier plate tabs viewed from the above camera angle) and the lever arm still doesn't clear the 5th/Rev. tabs on the carrier plate, then yes, the arm was probably assembled incorrectly during manufacture. Have I got that straight? Maybe not.

The arm can be bent slightly as long as the contact faces maintain alignment. If not possible, return the offending part to the supplier for a replacement.

Good you're exploring the root cause of the mismatch rather than performing an unnecessary "hack" to compensate.

Sherwood

i hate to point out the obvious but ..... you got it into 5th didn't you ? easy in easy out ... unless you really jammed it the same interference that stops it coming out would have stopped it going in .
Hard to tell from he pics but if the whole shift lever is pitched forward this would happen . If it were " tilted" back would you clear the tab with the shift lever resting against lockout ? just musing. Too bad i didnt see this yesterday as I had my whole short shift out on the bench and could have helped more.

I think it has something to do with the bending of the cage .. I bet you if he undoes the allen screw at the front a couple of turns and allows box to move forward a little it will clear. BTW anyone know if this is a friction fit or if there is suppose to be play on that allen screw that would allow that cage to float ?

?

it's a whole different operation for the spring loaded detent lever when it enters 5th, opposed to getting it out of 5th. if you had one in front of you, you would understand.
why is it a hack job sherwood? you carefully grind the tab down to the proper size, like on the old shifter, and it works. you don't have to bend the handle. voila! done!

John Walker, I don't think that's what sherwood really meant. Your solution seems to be the proper way to fix the current geometry.

I think Sherwood was responding to fixing it and going on your way without understanding what is wrong with the set up. Understanding what is wrong here, may save Wayne's suppliers from sending out more faulty parts and save everyone a lot of headache.

Wayne, thanks for getting on top of this so quickly.

Scott