'86 911 Euro upgrades?

[Zyvek]

Howdy.

I have an '86 911 Euro, that was brought over from Argentina the
previous owner. ( I have DOT and EPA paperwork from the importer).

According to the previous owner this car had a RUF conversion done on the suspension (lowered and fitted with nice 17" RUF wheels, I'm not sure what else a RUF suspension conversion entails, since the place that did the RUF stuff is no longer in business... Funny thing is that my local dealer once employed the mechanic that did the upgrade...

Anyway... I have not driving the car much in the last few year, since it took a backseat to my motorcycle. :-) Currently the car has just under 89K miles and runs just fine, less than 700 miles in a new clutch (with a aluminum pressure plate, but not a lightened flywheel - I was told it would wear too quickly)

As far as I know the engine is completely stock, as it came equipped for ROW and not USA. From what I've been able to tell though basic research (web, Excellence magazine and Bruce Anderson's book) an '86 Euro Carrera does 0-100kph / 0-60mph in 6.1 seconds (Excellence Nov 1999). I think the US version has 217hp vs. 230 for the Euro version.

All that stuff said, I'm interested in what kind of upgrades everyone would recommend.

I'm under the (mis?) conception that since the exhaust has no cat that it's already pretty free flowing.. (I assume this is where the largest gain in HP over the US version is) I've been thinking about about upgrading the MAF. Either the Autothority (is this still available, it doesn't seem to be on their website) or the Huntley Racing. The one from Huntley seems to good to be true. Any have any experience with Huntley? (http://www.huntleyracing.com/massairflow.htm) MAF not worth
the price? Chips and and a cone filter?

I'm interested in any feedback or suggestions anyone might have to improve my 0-60 times. I can turn a wrench, but I think it's pretty obvious I'm not a engineer by any means. (on that note how has putting larger wheels affected the stock performance of this car? I do understand that lowering the car reduces squat and helps to launch a car faster. Or so I am told ;-)


Curious to hear other upgrades people have done to their 3.2 911's. Looking for a fun project without doing anything internal/dropping the engine/etc. Unless it's really worth the effort!

Thanks for any words of wisdom, sorry if I come off sounding really dumb!

[Bill Verburg]

The only avenues which remains open to you while retaining Motronic are some mild cams(ie webcam 20/21) and/or displacement increase.

The maf mod is not worth the cost. cr is about at the limit for single plug 93 gas, twin ignition(also expensive) will allow higher compression.

The cams will allow an equal length header to function more efficiently so 1 5/8" headers would be a good choice, but only if the cams are changed.

If Motronic is discarded for say Motec(very, very expensive) and something like TWM intakes then even happier cams can be used, allowing the headers to work even better.

Of course there is no replacement for displacement so 98mm p/c or even better a 3.6 transplant will provide an across the board boost in power(unlike the cams which will only help at the top of the power band)

[dtfastbear]

Hey Z,

I've got basically the same car - an 86 Euro - but mine was brought from Germany, not from Argentina. If the car was legally converted, it DOES have a catalytic converter, now. The horsepower difference between our cars and the USA cars is from the heads - our car has a higher compression ratio because it uses different heads. I'm not sure if the computer chip is different because of this, and furthermore, I'm not certain if you need to take this into account when getting a new "performance chip".

Sorry I don't have more performance advice, but I thought you should at least know about the cat and heads...

Dean

[Steve W]

I replicated the Autothority (Pro-M) MAF system in my car and can say it does change the character of the car. Throttle response is much more responsive, and can safely say it is probably worth and feels like about 10 hp extra on the top end over just a performance chip. And this is compared to my former setup which consisted of the stock airflow sensor with a venturi shaped billet aluminum intake for a K&N cone, and a performance chip. A performance chip itself is probably worth about 12-15 hp, the billet intake 4-5 hp. Fortunately, I did not spend anywhere near the $2000 asking price - which I think is not worth it, but for the $300 I did spend, it is well worth it to me. It was the last of the engine mods I did to my car, which included SSIs (14 hp), bored throttle body, and ExtrudeHoned manifolds (7 hp). My car idles and drives much smoother than with the stock barn door sensor, and there is a nice smooth increase in pull throughout the rpm range.

The interesting thing is, both the MAF sensors sold by Autothority or Huntley, are not made by them, but by Pro-M out in Michigan, manufacturers of performance hot wire meters mainly for Ford cars. The sensors elements themselves are made by Ford and is a fine hot wire wound around a white ceramic element. See that black rectangular module on the side of the sensor with the oval shaped harness jack? Some will tell you that this is low grade '84 Mustang technology, but I don't think they have had any personal experience with the product. They are very accurate precision tuned devices. The only downside is that if oil and dirt get on the hot wire element, it will throw off its accuracy, and needs to be cleaned off with some brake cleaner. That is why systems such as the Bosch LH Jetronic have a 1 second burn off function when turning off the car to clear off any contaminants. Autothority uses Pro-M's flagship sensor, which is a patented cast aluminum venturi draw though design with a large bell shaped intake http://www.pro-flow.com/tech%20info/how.html whereas the Huntley seems to use Pro-M's more economical sensor. With the Huntley, you'll have to spend much time tweaking and tuning the system and I don't believe you can reprogram the ignition timing, with the Autothority, it's pretty much plug and play. Or you can just buy the sensor straight from Pro-M for much less and replicate either system, but that would be subject for another day.

[dickster]

amother supplier of MAF kits are amd in the uk. their system plugs right into the oe harness - no cutting. they repeated what steve said - much better throttle response, and about 10-20hp gain (with chip). cost about £1200

rebored throttle bodies for a few hp.

if you've got a cat. swap it for a euro premuffler for about 8hp. i wouldn't bother with ssi's on a 3.2, but plenty of opinions on that.

sport muffler for a couple of hp.

what about brakes/suspension upgrades??

turbo........

[AES]

I looked into mods for my Carrera, from my research the MAF is not worth the money(there are a few very expensive ponies there), there are many claims from vendors but no real world substantiation form independant sources. The power increase on euro engines is from higher compression pistons, a more agressive factory chip and freer flowing exhaust(premuffler instead of cat) the heads, valves cams etc are no different than our US versions. Porsche left very little in the way of cheap mods on the table with the euro version. I agree with Bills analysis of whats available.

[Zyvek]

Sorry for the late reply. I appreciate all the input, especially learning that the Euro does have the CAT and the extra HP comes from the higher compression. That would explain the add on Lamba box that Midwest Eurosport (they did the grey market-DOT/EPA conversion) installed. Finally opened the ECU to see if it already had an aftermarket chip in it.

I did get a good deal on eBay for a used Autotority MAF and extra ECU for little under $300. A price I can live with for sure. (I found the ad on the classified sections here, bought it from dwightp.) Actually it was Souk's group buy info that got me excited about the car again, waiting to complete the RUF look conversion. (to be ordered this week )

I also purchased an extra intake which I plan to have ExtrudeHoned as well. Can I swap out the intake without dropping the engine?

Next I'll be looking for a used throttle body to have rebuild & honed and of course a better muffler. Suggestions? I still have to pass emissions so I better leave the cat on, or at least replace it to restore any lost performance. The car has 89,000 miles on it, so I suspect it might be time.

I hoping to have a fun summer tinkering with the car, it's literally been sitting for about two years in the garage just waiting for me to re-discover it. (with an occasional month startup to move the car back and forth a few feet) I've just done the oil/filters/cap/rotor/plugs, but I guess it's time to learn how to do the valve adjustment myself. I'm getting cheap in my old age. Looks easy thanks to Waynes 101 book! Of course I should have read it before I changed the oil!

I've tried to find the option codes but the only thing listed on the sticker is C99. It also appears to have the turbo tie rods and turbo (lower) valve covers on it, but I'm not 100 % sure. I would be interesting to find out more about the car and how it came from the factory.

I did find out the PO only used the car for high speex Auto-X at Road America so there may be an upgrade or two on it I am not aware of. Are the yellow shocks in back standard? Was a bump steer kit installed when it was lowered? Plenty of questions to come. Funny how much "trouble" Wanye's book been for me. Seriously, it's another reason I'm excited about the car again.

Thanks everyone.

PS, the motorcycle may have to take a back seat this year!

[ChrisBennet]

The difference between the Euro and US compression is due to the pistons not the heads. Not all Euro cars were high compression.
Porsche doesn't leave a lot of horsepower on the table so extra ponies are harder to come by and more expensive compared to other cars.

The exhaust is the weakest link in these cars. SSI's will free up a few ponies as will removing or gutting the cat. Removing the cat may not be legal where you are so check first.

With the cat in place, intake mads won't have much effect. Running without a filter will not increase the horsepower so a K&N isn't going to help. (I've heard a loss of 3hp with no other changes.)

Any of these changes should be matched with a chip change to get the most benefit.

I wonder if replacing those beautiful but heavy Ruf wheels with Fuchs might shave a couple tenths off your acceleration times? I have them on my '86 and I love them but they sure are heavy.

If you haven't gone to the track, try a PCA or other Driver Education event. You may decide you want to spend your performance budget in other ways (track time, suspension, safety equip, etc).
-Chris

[RickM]

If you're buying spare pieces then buy a good used OEM muffler.
Do an archive search on the Dual exhaust modification.
Putting an identical exhaust pipe onto the right side of your muffler will give you a few more ponies for very little outlay.

[ZCAT3]

Originally posted by AES
I looked into mods for my Carrera, from my research the MAF is not worth the money(there are a few very expensive ponies there), there are many claims from vendors but no real world substantiation form independant sources. The power increase on euro engines is from higher compression pistons, a more agressive factory chip and freer flowing exhaust(premuffler instead of cat) the heads, valves cams etc are no different than our US versions. Porsche left very little in the way of cheap mods on the table with the euro version. I agree with Bills analysis of whats available.

You might want to use the search function - if so, you would come across this thread:

MAF Kit for 84-89 Carreras - 25 real HP - any interest?

I installed a Pro-M MAF with Steve Wong's help and got over 25 HP. I even posted a dyno chart. My car is an 87 US car with 113,000 miles on it and I am putting out close to 250 HP with the MAF. I think if someone bought the Pro-M kit and then perhaps had Steve do a chip for them, 250 HP is attainable for a stock 3.2.

[MIK911]

Zyvek,
If you're interested in selling those heavy, acceleration zapping, cast(not forged) wheels, i'll take them off your hands
Seriously, if interested in selling, email me.

Mike
'86 coupe

[Zyvek]

Thanks for the info, it looks like it wouldn't be too painful to swap out the cat once a year, at a glace it looks very accessable so long as I get some good hardware that wont seize and rust up.

I'm also pretty sure that I'll need a custom chip with everything I have planned, I sent a PM to Steve Wong to get some ideas, oh and sorry Mike, I'm afraid parting with the wheels would put a damper on the RUF look conversion I have planned! not to mention one of my favorite things about the car!

One thing I will do after I get it tuned back up and replace the DME relay (no spark when it's colder than 50 degrees out) is to do a Dyno run. There is a place in the area that charges per hour, no limit on runs, so I'm hoping to get a baseline and maybe even throw on the MAF in the same session.

[dickster]

Zyvek

have you checked that you have a cat?

have you checked your engine number to confirm origin and cr?

beyond that it appears to be confirmed from various threads here that replacing the cat with euro premuffler will give you about 8hp, a sport muffler 4hp, a chip around 10hp, and maf 10hp (?).

245hp seems to be attainable for euro cars starting with 232hp by custom headers and muffler, and matching (custom) chip.

not so sure about the claims that the 15hp lost is due entirely to cr.

[Zyvek]

Dickster - I do have a cat, all this time I thought I didn't but it appears I do, it looks to wide to not be a cat and the 02 sensor is right before before it. Maybe I should post a pic to be sure?

The engine is a 930/20 from the stamp on the top, (Other ending numbers if the help are: 63602502 on the top and 930.101.133.6R on the bottom)so I'm pretty happy to have the higher cr. Except if I ever put a turbo or supercharger on it I expect the higher cr would be a problem.

If I can work with the cat it would be better cause I'd have to put it back in every year for emissions testing. On the other hand the last time I went thru they actually thought the passenger footwell was the cat during the visual inspection!

Sport muffler is a good option, but I need a reccomendation for something is near stock for sound levels, I'd never get away with something noisy around town.

Thanks!