HP Junkies Turbo my 3.2 Part 2

[juan ruiz]

Ok Fellows The Turbo Proyect Continue.
Part 1 Turbo my 3.2 Got 320 hp 276 Rwhp
Part 2 Just drop off the car for the next level expecting Hp Goals 500 Hp rwhp the list is long but .
3.3 Pistons and Cylinders fresh from germany from a RUF Conversion, with 6,000 miles on them
Lower Compression 7.5
930 fuel Pump
944 Turbo Injectors
Full Bay Intercooler (the mother of the coolers)
A.P.R Harware Rods And Heads
Ported Heads and 3 angle cut
Nirosist Heads and Cylinders
Stage 3 Clutch Master
Open Oil Squirters 1 mm
Greddy Electronic Boost Controler
Titanium Valve Keepers
Racing Valve Springs
Custom Chip
6 Weeks from today she be ready, will post dyno numbers and misc. information
The DREAM has become a reality!!!!
Regards Juan
3.2 UNDERCOVER

[Kurt B]

that will be one hell of a sleeper...just looks like an ordinary 3.2...but jesus, it will blaze.

Very cool.

[Colby]

Be looking out for me; I too am in the preliminary stages of devising my own turbo setup on my 3.2. I raced and customized Talons for years (had one running low 12's in Denver...11 sec 2.0L at sea level) so I am VERY familiar w/ turbos and all the necessary components. I am looking into running twin turbos right off the SSI's. I plan to start w/ a pair of used smaller Garretts (maybe T25's off later Eclipses, I can always swap them out later for different turbos), since they will work together and merge into one IC. I will use the stock internal WG for now (I see you have aftermarkets on yours) and have them dump back into the exhaust (not open like yours). I will then run dual intake tubes to cone filters (not sure where to yet; if I ever get around to installing 930S turbo flares, the brake ducts would be good places). I still have a few snags to work out: 1) where I will tap into for oil supply for the turbos; 2) how I will supply the extra fuel (I see you're using a turbo fuel pump and 944T injectors) and how I will control the fuel map (custom chip?). I don't like NOT having a knock sensor. The way I see it, I can develop this myself and spend less than a Paxton kit from Knoxville SC, and 1) have more fun doing it and 2) have a system w/ far more HP potential. The engine is getting high on the miles which I know is a bad time to stress it w/ turbos. But if I can get a basic system on it, then when I do rebuild it, I can rebuild it around the turbo design (lower compression, etc). I may pick your brain down the road as to how you dealt w/ various snags. I plan to begin this venture next summer but may begin preliminary design work this summer...

Colby

[expat]

I'm watching carefully
Hatts off to you guys.
Don't forget to list all the items with prices at some stage.
Lots of photos too please

Cheers
Mark

[WydRyd]

Hey Juan! It's Merv from Australia!

Great to hear things are moving along. Sounds like you are going from Stage 1 to Stage 3! That's a bold move - congratulations and good luck with the conversion.

How did you go dealing with Richard/A.R.E for that Intercooler? Are you happy with the end result?

Also, what are you planning to do about your turbocharger? Your Garrett T04B with .58 A/R housing won't cut it at those HP levels. You'll have to get a larger flowing turbo or else your existing one will just turn into a heat pump! Just be cautious.

My 3.2 is in the process of having "Stage 1 Upgrade" performed. It should be ready next week, but I'm not holding my breathe. It's coming along really well though and the installation looks really neat. I'm sure I'll pay for it in the end, $$$$.

Things we do for kicks eh?

Good luck and keep us posted on progress

Colby, a twin turbo setup would be awesome. What boost are you planning to run? Do you plan to retain the stock capacity and C/R initially?

As for your oil query, you can tap the turbo's oil supply from the oil pressure switch using two 36" braided S.S oil lines. You'll have to mount the turbo's to the side of the engine, slightly higher than the lower CAM cover to facilitate gravity oil drain back into the lower valve cover. That's how mine and Juan's works. If you mount the Turbo's on the rear, like the 930's do, you will then have to get scavange oil pumps to pump the oil back into the engine. You will also lose your heater plumbing! Can be more costly and messier to install. Side mounted is neatest and cheapest. I agree that the Wastegate dump pipe should be plumbed back into the muffler. If excess exhaust is expelled into atmosphere, it will create a loud crackling noise everytime the Wastegate opens. Then again, you may not hear it since the engine is at the back. However, it IS a better setup to plumb back into the muffler otherwise exhaust fumes and flames from the wastegate will discolour the surroundings.

I used a TiAL 40mm Wastegate & Blow Off Valve, purely because of the quality of the product. I've seen some other products out there, but TiAL is suppose to be the best and the anodized finish looks great. You'll need two wastegates/bov's for your twin setup.

Anyway, keep us posted on your project too. It will be a blast!

Merv
'89 Carrera SuperSport Cabriolet

[RarlyL8]

Bold move Juan.
Still not sure why you didn't sell your existing engine and buy a 3.3t 930. Would save you a few $$. Can't wait to see the results.

My engine is just about finished. Hit a snag on the turbo bracket (of all things) but got past that. Should be all together this weekend. Pictures will definitely follow.

I too have a twin turbo project in the wings. The SCWDP needs to flex a little 3.0 liter muscle, no?
I'd like to follow along as these projects develope. Keep us posted.

[WydRyd]

RarlyL8 wrote:

"Still not sure why you didn't sell your existing engine and buy a 3.3t 930. Would save you a few $$"

Not true dude. The 930 engine, whilst a solid and proven turbo platform is not as good as a turbocharged Carrera 3.2 engine.

Why?

Well, the 3.2 puts out 217bhp in stock NA trim. Take the turbo off a 930 engine and it makes a whooping 117bhp!

The 930 runs a less efficient intake system (CIS) compared to the Carrera's intake system. Why do you think most serious 930 engine builders migrate to the Carrera manifolds and digital fuel injection? Because it allows for developing much more HP than the factory CIS injection.

The CIS injection system attributes to the laggy nature of the 930 engine.

The Carrera engine has the exact same internals as the 930 engine. Just different P&C's and compression ratio.

The Carrera has more efficient heads/larger ports than the 930.

The 930 intake & fuel system max's out at approx 450HP. The Carrera's intake system can handle 650+ HP. It's retained in Protomotive's Stage4+ turbosystems for the 3.2 Carrera. You'll NEVER see a 930 CIS injected engine develop that on K-Jetronic

The Carrera's injection system can easily be modified to flow more fuel by easily swapping to 944turbo injectors for even higher fuel flow and better fuel atomization.

So, when you add all that up, to get a 930 engine to develop and flow as much HP as a 3.2 Carrera platform, it would cost MUCH more.

Just my 2c worth.

[juan ruiz]

Colby nice proyect but.. Before I start my proyect i was going to supercharge her but i was not satisfy with the support from the manufactors,then i was to TWIN TURBO her just like your idea,but i found out that the twin turbo set ups are good for 500 + hp when you can make that with a single turbo and save some $ but i be more scare to run them with the higer compresion that we have and the internals stock, but of course everything is possible good luck and lets make another dream a reality.

Merv Hello, Yes this is a stage 3 border line 4 and yes the turbo may be a issue but we will run it to see otherwise Plan B is to change the hot housing and if everything else fail change the turbo what the heck! the intercooler im still waiting for,we have this crazy idea that we either going to run the A/C thru the cooler or install two injectors and run NOS for the charge air in addition of installing two small fans to draw air in,will see.

Rarly L8 Nice to hear your proyect is almost done the reason i did my 3.2 insteed of the 3.3 is all the above mention by Merv plus regarless of the condition of my 3.3 purchase engine i will have to open her up to be inspected and gamble with a surprise in addition of chaning all those combonents mention before but if i had to do it all over i probably install a 3.6 turbo motor or a 3.4 twin turbo saw one today but only making 400 hp.

Some much fun !
regards Juan

[WydRyd]

Ooops! I forgot to mention, the 930 engine develops just under 300HP on 0.8bar INTERCOOLED! A turbocharge 3.2 Carrera NON-INTERCOOLED develops 320HP at only 0.5bar!

Add an intercooler and up the boost to 0.7bar and you get close to 400HP.

To get that from a 930, you need perf headers, perf turbo, perf intercooler, perf muffler AND a 1bar boost spring!

Remembering, the higher boost you run the turbo, the hotter the intake charge and the more efficient intercooling and fuel delivery required to keep up.

[JohnC]

Juan.... a couple of questions... since I'll also be traveling down the merry trail of kompressed air happiness.

I assume you'll not be doing the work yourself and are recieving advice from (Prototech) whomever? Perhaps you could ask them or someone on this board could venture a guess.

1) In your HP recipe there's no mention of dual plugging the heads.... why not?

2) Also no mention of aftermarket connecting rods. Will the stock rods hold at those BIG Hp numbers?

3) As has been metioned, the 3.2 ports flow very well....Is there room for improvement?

For achieving the magical 500rwhp do the heads NEED to be ported? of course no heads need to be ported in a turbocharged motor, you can just turn up the boost but that induces its own problems as WydRyd pointed out.

[RarlyL8]

I do not agree with the comparison of the 3.2 vs the 3.3t engines.

OBVIOUSLY if you want 500+hp using a 3.3t you must ditch the CIS. You can purchase modified fresh 930 engines for around $10K and have a very good platform to hit 600hp with.

Use the 3.2 FI that you have and sell the rest for a few thousand dollars to use for further upgrades.

The 3.3L gives you a lot for free - low compression and a turbo oiling system, to name a couple. Modified versions will come with the obligatory $2500 exhaust, big turbo, and big intercooler.

Bottom line is you would have an engine that was made to be turbocharged for less total monitary outlay than doing the same mods to a 3.2 Carrera engine.

Just throwing ideas out, it certainly doesn't matter to me how anyone goes about extracting more power - that IS the goal after all.

[juan ruiz]

John C
I have changed Tunners because with the new Tunner i be able to do some work on my car if i wish plus i can bring some parts in intercooler etc but must important they are always thinking about my crazy ideas and are willing to test them plus we have move our camp to that shop and they are taking care of my buddies
500HP Honda and my Buddies 600+ M3 BMW,latest proyect from the camp in mind is to install a M5 Engine in a 88 M3 will see.
Back to you qs.
1)Based on my research the twin plug will be good for 600+hp so very hard for me to justify the expense before i do that i go with a Electronic Mang System and after this in the longgggggg run i may turn her into a 3.4 twin turbo if my wife dont kill me!
2)Rods i was going with them but unless that we use titanium for the weight the stock will hold the secret is the rod bolts
3) Cylinder Heads as you know they are pretty big and i see not a need to open them anymore but if i had the $ i will port them to match the intake manifold which i could extrude hone but again we are only looking at 550hp if i was going for 800+ for sure,but you have to stop somewhere,I have to tell you that theres many combinations out there i just feel this is the one that will work for me, hope this helps.
Regards Juan

[WydRyd]

RarlyL8,

I see where you are coming from and agree to a certain extent.

Yes, the 3.3t was built for turbocharging because it has the lower compression 7.0:1 pistons (6.5:1 for pre-77).

However, as you said, you can spend $10k on a freshly modified 930 engine capable of 600+ HP. BUT, what they're doing to the engine is already what the 3.2 Carrera has! Such as more efficient intake, more efficient heads, digitial fuel injection etc.

As I said, a 930 in NA trim puts out 117hp, a Carrera 3.2 puts out 217-231hp.

Anyway, the Carrera 3.2 has the exact same crank, rods, bolts as the 930 engine, so they are both very similar in terms of strength. The only diff is that the 930 has lower comp pistons, 100cc more capacity, slightly larger splash valves, oil scavange pump for turbo.

My reasoning for turbo'ing my 3.2 Cabriolet is that Australia never received any 930's post 1985. Therefore, we missed out on the turbo cabs down here My option was to trade my '89 Carrera Cab (turbo optioned) for an earlier/older 930 Coupe, which I didn't want to do, even though the 930 is a more exciting car to drive than a NA 3.2 Carrera. See, I'm a sucker for open top motoring

Now, since my car was already turbo optioned with the factory 930 turbo body, brakes, suspension, I decided to go down the turbo path and approached Protomotive. My car is being converted as we speak and will be road-ready next week. I can't wait!

It certainly WILL be a different car once completed

If I want more HP later on, I can always put in 3.4L 7.5:1 P&C's, flame ring the heads/liners, run 1.25bar and have 600+ HP. Pity my K27-7200 will only flow up to 475HP MAX. I'd have to go with a custom Garrett unit OR a K29. Bah, I'll worry about that later!

JohnC, I agree with you. Anything over 500HP, it would be wise to twin-plug to eliminate any detonation issues that may arise running at 1+ bar of boost. The 3.2's don't have knock sensors, so as a safety measure, twin plugging would be a good solution.

[juan ruiz]

Wheres all the HP JUNKIES??????

[Natchamp]

Do I count? I'm lurking in the background. I'm forever working on my project and should be getting close to having some dyno numbers soon, which I will gladly share. cheers.

[expat]

Lurking and contemplating

Cheers
Mark

[Jcon]

Juan

We're here, lurking and feeling quite humble in the midst of your project and "The Beast"


Keep posting as you get more


Jeff C

[juan ruiz]

Thank you guys!!!! I need moral support the board of directors won't give me anymore (d wife) LOL

I figure theres A LOT of people watching!

Nat Champ you are VERY WELCOME in my book you are as RADICAL as us but i have a feeling you are even more radical
you are the ONLY person in this earth that can answer ALL my damm Supercharge questions and yes post those dyno numbers im very interested in them.must of us GUESTIMATE and at the time of the dyno is always depressing,by the way the other day someone from europe mention a 911 with Twin Superchargers i bet that be interesting and that proyect that you are working on,that is out of this world,if you ever consider moving to South Florida you have a place in our camp along with a few others in this board.
Regards Juan
3.2 UNDERCOVER

[WydRyd]

Hey Juan,
You may want to run 2mm splash valves in that case to relieve piston temps.
1mm isn't that much bigger than the stock Carrera ones (0.9mm).
The 964's use the 2mm SplashValves and the 930's use the 1.5mm ones.
If you wanna run 1.2+ bar, I suggest 2mm squirters.
Just my 2c worth.

OR, did I read it wrong? Are ypu planning to drill out the existing squirters by 1mm? Please clarify.

Also, are you planning to run a front mounted 930 Fuel Pump?

Who didn't you choose a 993 Fuel Pump? Just curious.

[juan ruiz]

Hello Merv,yes we are going to drill them to make them 1mm on the original plan we were going to change them along with the oil pump but i have choose to keep the original pump drill them up and to compensate for the temp were are going to coat the pistons,rings and rod bearings this will assure us that the temp will be down and down the road change to the oil cooler like yours, on the fuel pump we will run the existing pump in line with a 930 fuel pump main reason i got a good deal in a new one,I have to tell you this combination may look very very simple in paper but i have spend almost a year on it and i have modify it more than 6 times so regarless of good or bad i have to stick to it otherwise i never built the damm thing.
In addition i came up with another of my ideas were we are going to mount the condersor under the car at front i will take pics in case you need them.
I have to wait and see, on Sunday a go away for 4 weeks to do one more overhaul(work) then i come home for 4 days then i go to Holland then she should be ready or almost ready.
Can wait!!