More scary G50 photos...

[JDaniel]

So you're wondering about your early g50, and the rumored clutch shaft update? This is the shaft from my car with 59k miles... I think I can see exactly where the needle bearings made contact (or should I say "embeded themselves").

[Mrdi]

Never seen this anomalie posted before J, especially with the starter ring fiasco. Has your car ever been in an accident where some mis-allignment may have occured as a result of impact?
Has the engine been out before this for other work?
Seems like you have a low mile car where it would be time for the first clutch-fork upgrade, but nothing this serious.
Please keep us posted,
Thanks,
Mrdi, 88 coupe w/45k

[JDaniel]

No major accident that I know of.

The ring gear has been documented as giving poor engagement. There is a TSB on it with an updated part. I knew it was slowly being ground away... just waiting for the drop to replace things.

I figure the grooves in the cross shaft are a result of the infamous early g50 needle bearings. The strange part is that I didn't think that my clutch action was that stiff/heavy.

The clutch is about 85% worn, so it'll be replaced. Most likely with an early turbo disk (Thanks KTL).

I posted the pics so p-car owners could see what may be lurking under their car. I'd never seen pics like these either. Just another reason to frequent PP.

[KTL]

I'm not sure how an accident may have anything to do with the clutch cross-shaft condition. The condition of Dan's shaft is the result of lack of lubrication. This condition is why the cross-shaft was updated in 89. My shaft was similarly dry, but not quite as worn, when I replaced/updated it at 62K mi. My clutch operation was not heavy either. How about the power of hydraulics, eh? If our cars had the earlier cable actuation system, I bet the shaft problems would be more noticeable to those who haven't updated their overly dry shaft!

Thanks for posting the pictures for all to see. I'll dig out my old parts and get some pictures. We can see how they compare.

[Rick Lee]

I'm already a clutch hypochaondriac and this thread is killing me. My clutch pedal has other problems at the moment - like air in the line, which I'll bleed next weekend. My clutch has always felt very stiff to me. But others who have driven it say it feels totally normal. I have 80k on it and everyone tells me not to worry about it. All I do is worry about it. I plan to do my own clutch replacement, but don't want to do it prematurely. How does one recognize worn needle bearings and cross shaft.

[88911coupe]

The famous bearing failure problem on my '87 Cab took months to actually fail. Prior to failue the pedal would sproradically drag in it's motion. Sometimes (unexplainably) it would get very smooth acting if I went through fairly deep water in the rain. Maybe it got "lubricated" somehow.
Finally one day got in, depressed the clutch and heard/felt crack and clutch stayed part way down. Off to Louden Motorcars (Dallas) and $3,500 later it worked perfectly...just in time for the guy who bought it from me.
Later

[KTL]

Originally posted by Richard LeSchander
How does one recognize worn needle bearings and cross shaft.

Buck's description is a good one. I think if you're experiencing inconsistent clutch return with increased effort, you might be having a shaft problem. Considering that you just bled the brakes, i'd have to think you're right in assuming you may have some air in the system.

[Rick Lee]

OK, but is this shaft/bearing problem uniform to all '87's or just some? I thought the premature valve guide wear problem was interspersed among some '87's and '88's. But mine is fine there too. Can I count on having to replace this stuff, or does it just happen to some cars?

[KTL]

Considering that Porsche put out a tech. bulletin to address the situation and thereby updating the suspect parts, i'd have to think the problem applies to all cars with the earlier shaft setup. I'd have to say that the shaft problem is just like any other updated part- depends on how the car has been driven. A lower mile car like mine (62K at the time) or Dan's (currently 59K) that see trips of shorter distance and more frequent gear changing would need the shaft updated (or simply degreased and relubed with longtime EP grease if the shaft is still in good shape) sooner than a car that has 150K mi. from cruising on the highways with less gear changing. The problem is caused by the dirt and disc debris contaminating the bearings' lubricant and drying them out. If you're not operating the clutch very much, the potential for the shaft bearings to dry up is a little less likely.

Although, time is not friendly to grease either. Sorry to get off the subject, but take a look inside your manual steering rack and you'll see what I mean. The grease separates and dries up over time in there too. The recommended amount of grease to put in the rack is 0.8 fluid oz. (a little under 2 tbsp.). I bet I only removed a quarter of that amount. The rest oozed out of the rack into the boots I guess.

Just my opinions, as I only have the experience of ONE clutch cross-shaft update. Mine.

[rbertels]

I'm aware of the clutch update, but I haven't had it done yet. I have a low mileage 87 Coupe that hasn't shown any signs of clutch problems. I know that the update will have to be done when it begins to act up, which I understand is often around 50-60K, depending on the type of use, of course.

What I'm not aware of is the reference to a stater ring problem. Every once in a while my starter doesn't engage properly, but on the next attempt it starts up normally.

Is there a TSB related to the starter or starter ring?

rbertels
87 Coupe

[carnut169]

Kevin- exactly where do I need to look to be sure everything is properly lubed? What type of preventative measures are recommended?

[JDaniel]

The original g50 starter ring was narrow and the starter would sometimes (on some cars) not engage properly. This problem was adressed and an updated ring was supplied for later cars. I believe that the later ring gear is now the only new stock available for the '87-'89 G50. PN# 950 116 143 01

My starter would occaisionally grind when I tried to start the car (about 1 in 20 times). After several years it became 1 in 3 times. You can see why from the picture.

[rbertels]

My starter grinds with the same frequency as yours, except this Sunday on one of my start attempts, it grinded three consecutive times. This was the first time this ever happened. I had been wondering if the solenoid wasn't engaging the starter properly.

I'm not sure what your saying when you refer to the picture, becasue the picutre is the clutch shaft and not part of the ring gear or the starter itself. If you have any pictures of the these items I'd be interested in seeing them.

I will probably pull my starter in the near future to take a look at the ring gear and to have the starter and solenoid checked out.

I wonder how many other G50 owners are having the same problem.

rbertels
87 Coupe

[KTL]

Originally posted by rbertels
What I'm not aware of is the reference to a stater ring problem. Every once in a while my starter doesn't engage properly, but on the next attempt it starts up normally.

Is there a TSB related to the starter or starter ring?

Since the jagoffs in my office can't put stuff back when they take it for personal use (digital camera), i'll type what the Parts Reference says about the ring gear. Hope this helps.


PORSCHE TECH TIP: POOR STARTER ENGAGEMENT

To improve starter engagement on 87-89 911 Carreras with G50 transmissions, a wider ring gear was installed on 89 model year cars. This new gear was installed in engine #'s 64K01999 thru 64K03112. When repairing cars with starter engagement problems outside of the above engine # ranges the starter ring gear should be checked for damage. If the ring gear is damaged, install the new wider ring gear part # 950 116 143 01. The starter gear should also be checked for damage. Important: Make sure the ring gear is installed correctly: Flat surface towards pressure plate. Recessed surface towards bolt head (fig. 2). Torque bolts to 24 Nm (18 ft.lbs). See PCNA Technical Bulletin Group 2, Number 8708 for additional info.

Originally posted by carnut169
Kevin- exactly where do I need to look to be sure everything is properly lubed? What type of preventative measures are recommended?

Sean,

Unfortunately, the only way to easily get at the cross-shaft (and be able to reinstall it easily) is to take the motor and trans. out and separate the motor and transaxle. I think you have to separate the drivetrain to get the clutch fork out of the bellhousing as I don't think it'll fit thru the inspection opening. When you remove the shaft you can clean it and the bearings in the clutch fork.

The Porsche reference material recommends lubrication of the shaft components with a grease called Olista Longtime 3 EP. I couldn't get it mailed to me from my favorite Porsche dealer and I really dislike the rape-job i'd get if I visited my local dealer in Orland Park. So I did a little looking around on the Dow Corning website and I found DC 1292 Long Life Bearing grease. A toothpaste sized tube of this cost $28, but it's pretty cool stuff. Kinda like a semi-rubbery fluorosilicone white grease. I lubed my updated shaft assembly with this stuff. The product info. is this:

DC 1292 Long Life Bearing Grease

[carnut169]

Thanks. I guess it does not make any sence for me to do anything like that- my car shows no signs of any problems.

[rbertels]

Kevin

Thanks for the details on the starter ring issue. Since I have one of the early 87's, I will eventually have more than one update to do - the starter ring gear and the clutch shaft bearings.

As usual the bulletin board is a great source of information

Russell
87 Coupe

[JDaniel]

Woops, sorry about the reference to a picture that wasn't there. I had put it in a previous post. Here it is again.

Also- be aware that all those sheared off teeth have to go somewhere. They were just floating around in there, being turned round and round. I'm not sure if any real damage could result, but there were many scratches.

So if you car is making those "Screeatch" sounds when you turn the key, chances are your ring gear is going to look like this. It also means a new starter.

[RJM3]

Hello following the thread on clutch cross shaft needle bearings....is there any way to install a grease fitting to lube these? thanks rjm

[KTL]

Originally posted by RJM3
Hello following the thread on clutch cross shaft needle bearings....is there any way to install a grease fitting to lube these? thanks rjm

The original cross shaft setup has the bearings in the clutch fork. The clutch fork would have to be drilled out to accept the grease fittings and you'd be drilling thru the bearings in the fork. Bearings are light-pressed into the fork and the fork pivots on shaft. Don't know if drilling the fork would help because you still need to be able to access the fittings which would be inside the bellhousing and hard to reach with your grease gun. Don't know how much this would weaken the pivot points of the fork itself either.

The updated factory Porsche cross shaft setup has moved the bearings within the bellhousing instead of inside the clutch fork (new fork has bushings). In this case, yes, you could drill the mountings that hold the shaft inside the bellhousing to accept the grease fittings, but this may weaken the mountings. I have heard of these mountings breaking in their current state (without the addition of a grease fitting). The fittings would still be difficult to access within the bellhousing. I suppose you could put a tube on the fittings and feed them out the access hole, but it seems like a lot of potential for stray grease (and maybe a loose tube) to get on your clutch assembly. NOT GOOD.

The new bearings are like a needle bearing with a casing around it. Sorry, I don't know the proper terminology for this type of bearing, but think of a regular coffee cup (without the handle) where the outside of the cup is the casing and inside the cup the cylindrical needle bearing is placed. Meaning, the only way to get grease to the bearing is thru the open end of the casing. The open end of the casing is where the cross shaft is inserted. Just like where you pour coffee into your cup. So, you don't want to drill thru the bearing's casing in order to lube it. That's not a good idea.