Excellence readers and SC owners

[89911]

If you have read the article about the two SC owners and the modification they have done in the latest Excellence, (too numerous to list!), what is your opinion? Some may feel it is great, I feel it borders on lunacy. $50,000 to $60,000 invested on cars that are worth less then half that amount. I realize that half the fun of upgrades is the experience of being in command of your project, but at what price? I think when your upgrades cost the same as your car, it is time for a reality check. Read the article and you will feel at ease with any "minor" upgrades you have done.

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8 9 9 1 1, The last of the line.

[MBradbury]

Hi,

Just received my copy of Porsche Excellence in the post and I couldn't agree more.

I own an '83 SC Coupe just like the one in the article (except mine's Grey Slate Blue), and personally I don't get any enjoyment out of upgrades unless I do them myself. I know somethings are best left to the skilled craftsman like resprays and alignments, etc, but these two guys went way over the top.

Regards
Mark '83 SC Coupe

[epbrown]

Originally posted by 89911:
Some may feel it is great, I feel it borders on lunacy. $50,000 to $60,000 invested on cars that are worth less then half that amount. I realize that half the fun of upgrades is the experience of being in command of your project, but at what price? I think when your upgrades cost the same as your car, it is time for a reality check.

I disagree with this, and I think most Porsche owners do in principle. You think Jack Olsen or Jack McAllister spent less on their projects than their 2.4L 911 Ts cost? Spending less than we paid for the car to upgrade or restore it would be impossible for any early car owner, and difficult for anyone with a Porsche made before 1990. Some very worthwhile dream cars can't be achieved by spending all your money on "the latest model you can afford." You pick a good foundation based on your goals and you get moving.

Someone that buys an SC and spends his money trying to make it a 993 is, in my opinion, foolhardy. Someone that buys a Honda Civic and tries to turn it into a Porsche is a nut-case. But someone that buys a totaled SC for five grand and spends a year and another five to make it into an excellent example of the brand is a dreamer. And someone that buys a wrecked or rusted 71 and turns it into a flawless example of a RS or RSR is a hero! And I'm glad we've got some of both out there...

Emanuel

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Everybody wants a normal life and a cool car;
most people settle for the car." Chris Titus
1966 Rolls-Royce Silver Shadow
1983 Porsche 911 SC Targa

[This message has been edited by epbrown (edited 07-04-2001).]

[89911]

That figure is only a rough estimate. These guys paid about $20,000 for their cars and proceded to dump $50,000 in them. You don't think for $70,000 you coudn't get something that is faster (993TT) and could be sold for about what you paid for it??? Anybody that is so willing to alter there cars also isn't planning on keeping for them for their lifetime also.

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8 9 9 1 1, The last of the line.

[Early_S_Man]

Guys and Gals,

I agree with Emanuel on this one issue, and feel the opinions of Bruce Anderson and others who always caution against spending more on a car 'than it's worth' ... are inappropriate for someone who has no intentions of selling the 'dream' they build! The issue of what any change or modification 'is worth' is always a subjective one ... and I haven't even read the article that started this, and another thread!

Many people here like to cite examples on eBay of projects out of control and ridiculous amounts that have been spent on them. That is a completely different issue, as many of the 'claims' in eBay ads are outright fraud! Even if you contact those people about mistakes, I have yet to see an auction cancelled or revised because of a mistake, and I have done just that ... contacted the seller in a couple of cases!

The issue of how much is OK to spend on a car seldon gets questioned when a new Turbo or Ferrari gets bought new, but many people criticize when others spend a LOT LESS on cars they build or modify only for the pleasure they get on the road or at competition events!

So, I say forget about how much others spend on a car they build for themselves! Less than 10 years ago, there was an article in Autoweek about the owner of a '66 Lotus Elan who had spent over $40K on modifications to make it into a championship Solo I car, and I have no problem with that, because the car wasn't for sale and nobody was trying to make a profit on it!

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Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa

[89911]

Warren, read the article. It may change your mind.

[MBradbury]

Hi,

At the end of the day, it's their money, and it's a free country. I just hope for their sake they don't chip those expensive paint jobs when they're racing!!

Mark
'83 911 SC Coupe

[911pcars]

For strict ROI (return on investment), spending more than a car is worth doesn't make sense. For you car investor types, you know what the limit is. For those who do it for other subjective reasons, be my guest. Have fun, it's your car.

If you choose your shocks, tires, torsion bars and sway bars (at all) based on ROI you should shop at Pep Boys. For many upgrades and products one can buy for their porsches, there is never a 100% cash ROI, but there is usually a large return in enjoyment.

Sherwood Lee
http://members.rennlist.org/911pcars

[Jack Olsen]

I haven't read the article (where the heck is my Excellence, anyway?), but I think there are as many ways to look at this question as there are people. Some key angles to view it from:

1) If you see cars as investments, then it obviously doesn't make sense to sink $50,000 into a $25,000 car. But if you see Porsches as investments, you should probably go back to business school anyway.

2) A lot of this has to do with your income and its relation to the cost of the car you're talking about. If you make a modest income, the fact that a Porsche holds its value pretty well makes it an affordable way to get your foot in the door of the world of performance cars. A $20,000 SC today will probably bring you close to that amount back when you sell it in five years. If you manage to find a reliable car, you can enjoy a great 911 for a pretty reasonable overall investment.

But if your income is ten or twenty times that figure, then the safety net of a Porsche's value retention is a less important issue. A 996TT is a fantastic car (and a great value, considering what it would cost to build one out of an SC), but it's not everyone's idea of a perfect Porsche. To a lot of people, building up an early car is a good way to have a real dream car (Carrera RS, RSR, R, ST, or whatever) and be able to enjoy it without having to commit the dubious act of risk wrecking a truly historic model for their personal amusement. If I bought a geunine RS and tracked it as frequently as I track my car, I'd feel a little queasy about doing it.

But if you want a fast Porsche and your devotion is to raw numbers, then a 996TT might be exactly what you're looking for. They're amazing cars, but -- again -- they're not everybody's idea of the perfect Porsche.

3) The quality of our lives and the soundness of our accounting skills are not always one and the same. No matter what a person's personal resources are like, everyone indulges themselves with excesses that wouldn't make sense to an accountant. The caffeine a $4 Starbucks coffee delivers is the same as a cup you could make yourself for pennies. Most of us try to buy a house that will simultaneously serve as an investment, but we don't look at toys for our kids in the same way. We spend $40 a month on cable, $8 for a movie, $15 for a CD, hundreds or thousands on computers and home electronics, without a realistic hope of any of it providing a meaningful return further down the road. Life dictates that we responsibly balance our resources with our appetites, but -- to my mind -- that only means that a $70,000 SC is a bad idea if it rocks the financial boat of its owner. If he can afford it, and he has a particular attachment to that particular car, then (again, without having read the article), I'd say more power to him.

If you plan on getting a better car in five years, then it makes sense to invest with that five-year term of ownership in mind. If you plan on having a particular 911 for the rest of your life, then I think it makes sense to make the math proportionate. I paid $8,000 for my car, and have put a little more than $20,000 into it. If my plan was to sell it for a profit, I'd have to judge the endeavor as a failure. But if it's a car I enjoy for the next thirty years, then it's going to cost me less than what I'll probably pay for a day-to-day transportation vehicle during that same period.

And even if I were to walk away from the whole project in the next year or so, I'd still happily pay what I've paid. I can't imagine $30,000 buying me a car I'd like more than this one.

The cool thing about Porsches is that it's a flexible platform, and a hobby that can be bought into for a relatively modest cost or for a very big one, at the owner's option. The nice thing about the Pelican board is that that full spectrum of economics and ambition can come together with relatively few judgements in either direction.

And on top of all that, we've got guys like Warren.

(Now, all that said, an SC wouldn't be my personal choice for a $70,000 road and track monster. But to each his own.)


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Jack Olsen
My Rennlist home page • My Pelican Gallery page • My Porsche Owners Gallery page

[This message has been edited by JackOlsen (edited 07-04-2001).]

[David McLaughlin]

Amen, Jack.

Some cars are investments, but you can not drive an investment car; they are garage and occasional trailer queens.

Another thing to think about is tose of us on a very limited budget. I am guessing that I will spent at least $15-20k on my 914 conversion that I bought for $5k. When it's done, I would hope that I would be marketed for close to $15k. Not a good investment at all but that money will be "thrown away" over a number of years, $100 here, $200 there as I get extra to spend. I will also have to hide some of the yearly bonus money from the wife and kid (soon kids).

If I had the $25k to spend today, I would buy a nice carrara but since I don't, I will have to be happy with what I can afford now and make it into a "nice" car. Wait, who am I kidding? What I would do with that money is buy a turbo, needing work and sink more money into it over a number of years...



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Dave
1970 914/6
1995 Golf GTI-VR6
1996 Passat TDI

[CamB]

Yeah agree with Jack too.

Cold economic and financial theory will only get you so far. A couple of examples. I know that buying a house is not that great a way of employing my capital (at least in NZ where capital appreciation is low). But I will probably do it soon anyway - why? Because I want future security (when I own it) and a compulsory savings regime, otherwise I spend it on cars . If I was disciplined I could invest it wisely and end up in a better position (through greater capital appreciation against low implied returns to the lessor if I rent) but owning my own house appeals more...

Second example - economics 101 - you learn about opportunity cost. So when you think about mowing your lawn, you trade off the $10 it costs to get the neighbours kid to do it against your own time. Often, you figure you just mow it, cause you are not giving the kid $10 for such an easy job. Opportunity cost says you would also mow the neighbours lawn if they gave you $10. No way, right? Opportunity cost is too coldly rational, and human emotions undermine it.

I can see how someone would spend really big bucks upgrading a car. I am spending way over what it is worth to "refresh" mine, just cause I want to and know I will be happy with the result.

Cam

[RarlyL8]

This particular issue has little to do with economics. No car is a good investment. Period.

The problem is that these guys litterally through money at mechanics to repair, restore, and upgrade thier SCs.
$6000 for a tranny job? $20,000 for a 3.2L upgrade? That's plain stupid. Throw money around like that for very long and I guarantee you won't survive the long haul.

[Early_S_Man]

What a couple of SC owners did is not really the issue, and unless they sprung for a couple of $40K Bob Norwood 9000 rpm engines, or something of a similar nature ... like an RS 3.0 MFI engine clone, they wouldn't be of much interest to me. Well, maybe a 3.5 with Webers and a short-geared 915 with ZF limited-slip and a 7:37 ring & pinion (no typo, 7:37 -- 5.286:1 ring & pinions for 915s do exist) might make them a little interesting, too!

Yes, you can spend $20K for a 3.2 upgrade, especially if it is rebuilt and installed at a dealer like Stoddard's, or maybe an unscrupulous wrench, and one pair of 915 components can run over $6K, alone ... hint, hint ... the ones mentioned above!!!

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Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa

[Bo]

What issue of Excellence would that be? I just got the August issue in the mail (I'm overseas), and there was noting about SC's in that one... Have I missed an issue?...

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1972 911S Targa
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My project!

[epbrown]

Originally posted by Bo:
What issue of Excellence would that be? I just got the August issue in the mail (I'm overseas), and there was noting about SC's in that one... Have I missed an issue?...

The September issue arrived in my mail over the weekend - sounds like it's running late for some people...

Emanuel

[pbrown]

Jack and Rarly8 hit it on the head. The cost of upgrades and restorations are almost never discussed. This article is receiving so much attention because the costs were quoted and due to the tone of the owners' willingness to spend huge sums without any plan. Examples of their lack of planning/article tone include: 1)Go to spray the hood and decide to have the whole car painted for $8,500? 2) Swap out the race suspension for a street set-up and then later install a new race setup?

In contrast to these SC's, we all admire Jack's car because it's beautiful, fast and actually makes financial sense. He has a car that generates 993 or better perfomance for about $30,000. Why would you pay $20,000 for a 3.2 update with CIS when you can buy a 3.6 for less, or in Jack's case $5,000 plus instalation costs.

[pwd72s]

Jack O.? You really had it all done that cheaply? Under $30K for that gorgeous machine? Hmmmm, now I REALLY want an early 911 horod! Trouble is, I only have the garage space for one toy car, and the one I have is going to stay. But really, I'd have guessed MUCH more. Even more kudos to you!

And yeah guys, my Sept. EXCELLENCE yet to arrive, here in Orygun. Seems like I already know all about one article.

[Superman]

Why do we measure everything in dollars?

Kitchen remodels are (according to the experts) the only home upgrades with any hope of recovering costs, assuming a contractor is used. Yet homeowners frequently remodel all kinds of rooms. Perhaps they sense that their environment is actually more valuable than their net worth.

Which makes you happier....your net worth, or your environment?

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'83 SC

[RarlyL8]

It is only prudent to have some type of financial plan in place in the event you fall on hard times. Blatently throwing your money away with no hopes of liquidation value is playing with fire. Even with your toys you must excersize restraint. Sometimes when it rains it pours.
Ask the dot com crowd.

[Randy W]

I find it interesting to read some of these posts, because I have done something similar to these SC owners, albeit to an earlier 911 (you will probably read about it someday). I think that some of you are missing the point of these "projects" - these guys are relatively well-off and are not selling their modified cars anytime soon. They can afford to modify for competitive driving and it's their car. To criticize someone who spends four times as much as what is normal for a gearbox rebuild, probably hasn't driven an SC with short gears and a Quaife. At the risk of offending, I have to say that a stock SC or Carrera is not all that interesting for me to drive, and it obviously wasn't to these guys either. Life is short - make it what you want it to be.

Randy Wells