E15 can wreck engines

[tirwin]

Interesting article...

E15 alcohol fuel can wreck engines, auto groups' data say

I love how the industry trade group behind E15 claims it's ok because it's used in NASCAR. Because there's no difference between a NASCAR engine and let's say the engine in a Toyota Camry.

The increased use of ethanol makes me worry about the corrosive effect on the 911 engine. We all need to be aware of this on our aging cars. You can replace fuel lines, but what about the effect on things like fuel pumps and valves?

Bottom line seems to be that E15 may be fine for engines that have been designed for it. Question is... How long before those of us with older cars don't have a choice?

[Quicksilver]

Support for the subsidies that created E15 is going away. The knowledge that it is an astounding waste of money and that it isn't an efficient way of creating energy is becoming more pervasive.

[poorshe911]

Luckily, there are a couple places here in Rochester that sell non-E15 gas. It's about $0.40 more per gallon but it's not that big a deal as few miles the 911 gets per year.
I use the additive in my wifes '99 bmw.

All the cars guy's I know have no use for the stuff.

[MichiganMike]

I like this API statement better:
Research group tests show E15 damages vehicle engines

There is a lot of push back on E15 at the moment and I dont forsee it going into use any time soon, or ever. Ethanol producers may come back and try for E12 or something, but E15 is a bit premature. There isnt enough testing done on it yet. Hopefully CRC can help with that. Now as for as it goes with running it in our cars, I would try and get non ethanol fuel first if you can, as each state controls their laws differently for fuel. This is why this site is useful: Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada So if E15 is legal to sell according to EPA, it doesn't mean you will have it throughout your state for sale. If the whole country does actually sell E15, and only E15, we will be just like many boat owners in complaining about E10 ruining engines, but on a much MUCH larger scale. Hopefully, and doubtfully, that will ever happen.

[Brown747]

Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada

[HawgRyder]

My take on this is....Ethanol in the fuel might be OK...but you have to allow for it when building the engine.
Ethanol affects rubber and neoprene differently than gas...so...if you are going to use it...build for it.
This means older engines built for gas probably should not use it.
It would be the same as trying to use Diesel in a gas engine.
Bob

[timmy2]

Filled up with pure premium gas yesterday. Sure runs nice at $4.80 a gallon......

[tirwin]

Originally Posted by HawgRyder

My take on this is....Ethanol in the fuel might be OK...but you have to allow for it when building the engine.
Ethanol affects rubber and neoprene differently than gas...so...if you are going to use it...build for it.
This means older engines built for gas probably should not use it.
It would be the same as trying to use Diesel in a gas engine.
Bob

Right. Which is why it's important that we, as consumers, continue to have a choice.

I don't want to get into all the 'vast conspiracy' stuff, but as a car guy and someone who loves classic cars, it seems to me that if certain groups get their way with this kind of legislation, it is just making it a lot more expensive for the average joe to enjoy this hobby. And for what purpose? What is the percentage of flex fuel vehicles on the road today? Less than 1% I'll wager. So you're talking about a huge inventory of vehicles that have to roll over to flex fuel.

And look at how many people drive these cars as their DD! Of course, it's all good as long as you keep buying new cars.

[SiberianDVM]

Hmmmm. I don't get to drive the 911 much, as it always seems to be up on jackstands, but there are a couple of gas stations listed near me on that pure-gas.org list. Anybody know why they mostly are "unbranded" or some other name I never heard of?

And the stores are pretty grungy looking. I hope I never have to stop at one when the GF is along; she would never use one of those restrooms.

[DG624]

I live in Ohio and was told that SUNOCO does not use ehtanol. They have 93 and that is all I use. How do you verify the content of gas?

[Brad394]

Ethanol affects rubber and neoprene differently than gas...so...if you are going to use it...build for it.

I would agree with you on this point - any hoses used to deliver the fuel needs to addressed.

but...

It would be the same as trying to use Diesel in a gas engine.

this point - not so much. 10 - 15 % ethanol is nowhere near comparing diesel to gas.

As car guys a few of us lived throught the demise of leaded fuel - lead being a lubricant - thought the end was here for performance and older engines ... that was not worth the worry. I feel this - from an engine - point of view will be similar.

now the food for fuel debate is something else

[tirwin]

Originally Posted by SiberianDVM

Hmmmm. I don't get to drive the 911 much, as it always seems to be up on jackstands, but there are a couple of gas stations listed near me on that pure-gas.org list. Anybody know why they mostly are "unbranded" or some other name I never heard of?

And the stores are pretty grungy looking. I hope I never have to stop at one when the GF is along; she would never use one of those restrooms.

That is a good question. The one listed near me is an "unbranded" too. Thing is... how do you really know? How does data get into this database? How often is it updated?

[brads911sc]

The grungy looking stations are just buying the leftover gas from the branded stores. They are certainly not refining or hauling their own fuel.
Hell even the Exxon-mobil stations are using Gas from a Chevron Rack where the only diffrerence is the additive.
Ethanol is regulated and required by the EPA.
Id wager my paycheck that most of the stations on that list are just selling you untested and unbranded fuel that contains ethanol.
wife works for a major gasoline hauler here in oil capital. pretty interesting to watch her computer board as she delivers gas to Chevron, Exxon-mobil, Shell and a grocery store all from the same tanker with gas from which ever Rack is closest to the deliveries. In N Hourtson its Exxon, In S Houston its Shell. All the same gas. Only exception would be genuine company owned stores. very few of those left. Exxon-Mobil sold all 3500 they owned.
my .02.

[brads911sc]

Dont believe it. Call Sunoco and ask them. Good luck with that phone call. The way the gas distribution system works in every city (with the exception of company owned stores) is that they get their gas from whomever owns the closests racks. and this is almost never even the same brand...

Originally Posted by DG624

I live in Ohio and was told that SUNOCO does not use ehtanol. They have 93 and that is all I use. How do you verify the content of gas?

[drmatera]

wait, you mean to tell me my 930 motor is now ruined? I've been running E85 in my EFI converted, but still stock pumps, hoses and completely stock engine internals, for over 2 years now. I am so pissed..

But wait- it stills runs better than ever..

The sky is falling guys, better put on your hard hats.

[gregwils]

Originally Posted by brads911sc

Dont believe it. Call Sunoco and ask them. Good luck with that phone call. The way the gas distribution system works in every city (with the exception of company owned stores) is that they get their gas from whomever owns the closests racks. and this is almost never even the same brand...

In PA, Sunoco sells 94 octane. Can they use "closest rack" gas for a higher octane fuel? Thanks.

[tirwin]

Originally Posted by drmatera

wait, you mean to tell me my 930 motor is now ruined? I've been running E85 in my EFI converted, but still stock pumps, hoses and completely stock engine internals, for over 2 years now. I am so pissed..

But wait- it stills runs better than ever..

The sky is falling guys, better put on your hard hats.

Glad you are not having any problems. Plenty of auto makers are against it. I know BMW has stated that they are against it after their own testing. I don't think this is a passing fancy.

[S2GART]

Just because it may be used in NASCAR, doesn't mean sh@# for a street car. Those who believe in that logic, deserve what they get. Those engines are completely taken apart after every race. Despite them going 190 mph for 3 hours, doesn't equate to 100,000 miles of street driving. There is no "long term" use of anything in a race car, so one can't do any real research of the long term effects of ethanol.

[Drisump]

Also, the reduced BTU's per gallon results in a significantly less MPG. Do consumers understand this?

[drmatera]

It's all politics... I don't buy any of this horse s**t about e15 causing problems in an engine when in my 7-8 years of direct daily use of E85 in the last 2 vehicles I've owned has shown zero issues/problems. Even a raw aluminum fuel rail that has had e85 in it since '06 shows no corrosion what so ever.

neither of my cars were flex fuel.. While it does require more to produce the same BTU it is a great alternative to race fuel that is now well over $9 per gallon. We pay $3.50 per gallon for e85 around here..

to say your car runs better on 93 than e15 is most likely placebo effect