Porsche911 questions

[Ash911]

I am from south Africa and new to this forum.

Iv never owned a Porsche though I have come across what's seems to be a classic and I am very interested in purchasing.before I go ahead with anything I first need some clarity on this 911.

As advertised its a 1974 911 2.7 RS targa.

Now my big question after doing some research I would like to find out if the RS spec ever came out in a targa top?I have no clue about Porsches but with some basic google search I find it hard to believe that this car is a legit RS spec.

Secondly the car is coming in at a relatively good price as it needs some attention.

If someone would be kind enough to follow this link to the advert and shed some light on this car for me I'd appreciate it,before I even bother wasting my time going to have a look at it.
Link below
PORSCHE 911 TARGA-TOP (American RS Spec) - Johannesburg & Gauteng used car for sale - Gumtree Johannesburg & Gauteng Free Classifieds

Regards Ash

[Targalid]

That works out to about $7900 US for a 74 Targa with some body parts added to "enhance the looks". I personally have never seen the need to add a whale tale to a car that looks just fine without it. I believe the RS had a ducktail engine lid so this is just an add on as is the air dam at the front. I think if you google 1974 RS you can see what I mean. I have only seen RS Coupes. The interior looks nice to me. I can't tell about the seats being original. This price, for me, would be at the high end of the price range for a 2.7 that runs. I would not advise you pay that much for a car that is not running since you have no idea if the engine will run. Less than half the asking price would buy a non-running but nice looking mid year car here. A distributor cap is a cheap part for this car so why hasn't the owner fitted one and made the engine run? Giving up that much in the sale price seems suspicious to me.

[Grady Clay]

Ash,
First, WELCOME to the Forum
You will find a lot of help here.


What is the VIN?

I suspect it is a 1974 911 USA Carrera 2.7 Targa (not RS).
If so, the VIN will be in the range: 9114610001 through 9114610433, not high production.
If original, the type 911/83 engine number will fall in the range 6640001 through 661456 (the same engine used in coupes and Targas).

There was not a ’74 Carrera RS 2.7.

The 1974 Carrera RS 3.0 was the homologation special for the ’74 RSR.
These were all coupes.
I don’t know if the RS 3.0 had a different VIN from the RSR series – I don’t think so.
Many (most?) of the ’74 RS 3.0s were converted to a race RSR configuration.
The VIN for a ’74 RSR is 9114609xxx. 9114609123 is the last one listed.

(I brought RSR 9114609076 new from Porsche AG to Denver.)


Not withstanding all this, if this is a sound car it will provide a lot of fun.
Critical is to do a very through Pre-purchase Inspection (PPI).
Have it running for inspection.

What is the body condition – rust and prior crash damage repair? Have an expert look it over carefully.
Carefully inspect the 2.7 engine. Check for loose/pulled head studs and more.
How does it shift and drive?
There is more.

Post all the info here and we can guide you.

Again, welcome.

Best,
Grady

[Ash911]

Hi guys,

Thanks for your input,well I haven't yet gone to see the car as yet so I don't know what she looks like close up,neither do I know the vin nr.But from what you are telling me it's def not an Rs spec.

When I last spoke to the owner he says that Porsche South Africa has ordered a distributor cap for him,the one in the car has a crack in it and if I had to bring a distributor cap along I could drive it away,but then the next day he tells me that he tried to start the car and found oil coming out of the breather pipe and I should call him up on Monday instead.The main problem here is that this car is situated some 3 hours drive away from me.

Lastly even though it isn't a Rs,the price for a targa in excellent nick seems to be selling for between $20000 -$30000 (when converted to us)
These cars are really that scarce on our side of the world though parts can be imported from the US.

Also I noticed it also has a dual exhaust system,did the 2.7 have this as std or could this just be modified?

[Dave Colangelo]

The 73/74 RS was only available in coupe and they only made 1500 or so. The RS was originally intended to be a limited run make. They had only set out to make a few hundred but ended up making 1500 or so because they were so popular. These cars are extremely sought after and can fetch well over 100K. To the best of my knowledge they also all had the duck tail spoiler.

That being said this is obviously not an original RS, it is how ever a nice car and could be a lot of fun if every thing is in order. The 2.7 engine has its quirks but then again so do all engines. A PPI is a must.

As for the exhaust my 3.0 has a single exhaust and I believe it to be the stock one. So the double is most likely a modification. The exterior looks nice but it seems as though the interior needs some work.

If the cars are that rare have you looked in to buying one here and shipping it over? You can find a decent Carrera or SC in the US for 15K if shipping is only 2K or 3K you may want to look in to that option.

Regards
Dave

[Grady Clay]

Originally Posted by Dave Colangelo

The 73/74 RS was only available in coupe and they only made 1500 or so. The RS was originally intended to be a limited run make. They had only set out to make a few hundred but ended up making 1500 or so because they were so popular. These cars are extremely sought after and can fetch well over 100K. To the best of my knowledge they also all had the duck tail spoiler.
...
Regards
Dave

Dave,

I think you are referring to the 1973 Carrera RS 2.7.
The original planed (thin metal) run of 500 was expanded for a total of about 1500 ’73 RS built.
The second and third runs of 500 were normal thickness metal.
The 2.7 engine (911/83) produced 210 hp.


The 1974 model Carrera RS 3.0 coupe production was “… a few more than the planned 100 cars were made and sold.”(1)
The first 15 were the IROC cars that raced at Riverside, October ’73 – I was there and in these cars.
These were basically the ’74 Carrera RS 3.0 still with 5-bolt wheels but the 3.0 engines were ‘high-butterfly’ (like the ’73 2.8 RSR, 911/72) and the ‘duck-tail’ was replaced with the IROC ‘tea-tray’ wing.

The ‘standard’ ’74 Carrera RS 3.0 had the 3-liter engine of the RSR but de-tuned (type 911/77) with the earlier standard (’72 911S through ‘73 RS 2.7) MFI and ‘S’ cams.
These were rated at only 230 hp due the restricted injection and cams but being 3-liters and 9.8:1 CR had 302 ft-lbs torque @ 5,000 rpm!

When ordered as an RSR, it was still a DM 65,000 Carrera RS 3.0 but some 50 were built with the $6,000 M491 option.(2)
This included the ‘917’ brakes, center-lock wheels and the 3-liter 911/75 side-valve engine (911/75) producing 320 hp @ 8000 rpm.(3)

Yes, the ’74 RS 3.0 and the ’74 RS 3.0 M491 RSR shared the same sequence of VIN: 9114609016 through 9116409110(2) or 9116409113(3).
There are a few more built from other chassis.


(1) Ludvigsen, Karl; Porsche: Excellence Was Expected; Bentley, Cambridge, MA; 2nd Ed., Vol 2, p.654; 2003
(2) Starkey, John; From R to GT2; Gryfon, St. Petersburg; 2008.
(3) Barth, Jürgen and Güstov Busing; The Porsche Book; David Bull, Phoenix, AZ; Vol. 3, p. 304; 2009.

There are very few (if any) ’74 Carrera RS 3.0 unmolested with the M491 and the like.
When someone in SA reports a claim, it is worth investigating (even if it had been converted to a Targa).

Best,
Grady

[Dave Colangelo]

I guess I was referring to the 73 2.7's Thanks for the info I did not know some of those facts. Im sure it was amazing to actually be in one of those original IROC's

Regards
Dave

[Grady Clay]

Dave,

There is more to that story.

Mark Donohue and I were back at the Inn in Riverside and swapped cars to go out to the track.
He brodied my 911 into the semi-circle of IROC cars that had been set up for a photo-shoot inside the Carousel, next to the paddock.
Of course all the cars were new, shiny and dust-free.
As the dust settled, Roger Penske came storming out thinking it was me.
When he found Mark in my car he raised his hands as if to say “Give me a break!”

The photo-shoot went off as planned.
There are some pictures of my ’68 911 sitting in the middle of all the new IROC cars.

Best,
Grady

[Ash911]

Originally Posted by Dave Colangelo

If the cars are that rare have you looked in to buying one here and shipping it over? You can find a decent Carrera or SC in the US for 15K if shipping is only 2K or 3K you may want to look in to that option.

Regards
Dave

We have a law in South Africa that does not permit us from importing 2nd cars into the country.Unless you are a citizen living abroad who wishes to move back into the country then you are permitted to import.

Regards,
Ash

[Grady Clay]

Ash,

Good morning.

How about a ski vacation here in Vail and you just ‘must’ return with your new (vintage Carrera) 911.
“But (import) officer, I just could not re-sell it without a loss. I just had to bring it home.”

I’m sure we can find you a very nice SC or Carrera at a ‘good’ price.


When you go look at the Targa, take lots of pictures.
Can you post images from that ‘remote’ location?
If so, you can get ‘real-time’ advice from the Forum.

Pay particular attention to the VIN in all the locations. No molestation.
It is not unheard of a stolen USA 911 shipped overseas.

Best,
Grady

[Ash911]

Good evening Grady,

Yeah it is possible to upload real time pics while viewing,Il do my best to cover all corners of the car and report back to you chaps.i believe with some restoration and changing it back to its original condition it could be a real gem.
My only concern being the condition of the motor,if I can fire her up and she does not show any major signs of failer it could be a good deal for me.wish me luck
And perhaps you could be right about a rs spec converted to targa (I highly doubt though)

I'm glad I found you guys,you really are of great help!

[Grady Clay]

Ash,

The 2.7 engine is notorious for having the cylinder head studs ‘pulling’ out the threads in the crankcase.
This is a serious problem.
Unless you can be absolutely sure this has been properly repaired, you should budget an engine rebuild.

If the car appears good and is a potential purchase, get the car running.
You can contract with the seller your possible purchase subject to inspection and approval.
If it doesn’t pass inspection, you can always negotiate a more appropriate price.

Take it to someone with the proper tools and knowledge.
You want to measure the cylinder leak and cranking compression.
Inspect the engine oil sump and cut apart the oil filter for inspection.
Remove the valve covers and check for all the head nuts not loose (don’t torque, just make sure they are all (24) are tight.)
Note that the cylinder studs do not protrude into the hex part of the head nuts (a sign of pulling threads).
Under the engine, inspect the junction of each cylinder and head for signs of oil leaking (a sign of leaking head gasket).

Who can you find to help you?
You need experienced eyes to help.

Keep in mind that there are ‘good appearing’ 911s that require such expensive repair that they are not economically viable to purchase and repair.
It isn’t prudent to buy a $6000 911 and spend $20,000 only to have a $12,000 911 with $26,000 invested.

Best,
Grady

[Targalid]

The oil coming out of the breather pipe could be due to overfilling the oil sump prior to a startup. This is a classic mistake because the oil from the sump will drain back into the engine over time leaving the oil dipstick dry. The next person to attempt to start the car sees the dry dipstick and fills the oil tank to the "proper level" prior to turning the ignition. The result is an overfill and the excess oil then blows through the breather into the airbox. The engine should smoke a lot as the excess oil is blown out the exhaust. This is a common problem and may actually be a good sign for you. At least the engine has oil in it.

[Dave Colangelo]

Grady,

I go to Lehigh University where Roger Penske once went, occasionally he comes by to say high but I have never met him. Its kind of silly I am on the formula SAE team here and we design and build our own formula race car for the school and Im almost sure he has no idea we exist.


anyway
I had what I though was a miserable oil leak when I first bought my SC. it turned out that I was massively over filling the oil tank. I have never read any where that you should only check the oil after the car has been at operating temp for 20 min or so, and you must be on level ground. I would always check my oil cold and it would always be low so I would fill it up and it would leak every where. Then once I figured out that it has to be checked only when warm I have yet to have an oil leak since. Make sure if you get the car running to let it warm up then check the oil I learned that the hard way.

The thing to remember is that even if the car starts its going to need work. Work takes time and money, lots of money if you have some one do it for you. Be prepared to have a good deal of work done on this car. I have always used my Porsche's as my DD's but have always had other cars to fall back on in case some thing was not working. The Irony is that most of those cars have been my other Porsche's. There is nothing like owning and driving a Porsche and it sounds like it is hard for you to get them where you are. If that is the case I would jump on this opportunity but be prepared to put the time and money in to make the car what you want.

Regards
Dave

[Bear911]

Hi Ash

As a fellow member of the long-suffering South African contingent, welcome! I also saw the add, drew my attention because that (for the benefit of the others on this board) is the cheapest 911 I have seen in the classifieds for some years.

The car could be an excellent project. If the rear arches are real, it might even be a 2.7 Carrera, in which case just buy it! Get the chassis and engine VIN asap. Put an original bumper back on, lose the tail, get a better steering wheel and detail it. Might just be a nice driver.

But +1 on what Grady and Dave have said. Things that would worry me most would be pulled studs, rust (74's aren't galvanised, although the Limpopo climate may have been kind) and registration papers. An unregistered LHD is practically useless in SA. You'll never get it through roadworthy. Eish no, what is dees funny ka?

The seller doesn't really seem to be to keen on P-cars, so push him for a price if the above-mentioned checks out. '74 911 Targa Top American RS Spec' is a nice way of saying bastard car (not that bastard cars can't be nice!) and what exactly does he mean by 'origANAL'? LOL

If you do buy it, I would love to check it out. I'm in Pretoria.

Regards

[tevake]

Aloha Ash, and welcome aboard the forum. Sounds like you are very excited about this car and about getting into a Porsche of your own. We all can understand your stoke, we've all got it bad/good too, if you know what I mean.

Glad you found the Pelican forum to help you on your way. Do listen to Grady's advice
he is one of the most helpful here and is most experienced in all aspects of these cars.
Its a hard thing to take your time to find the best car to buy once the decision is made to get one. I bought the first one that I checked out, after a PPI I jumped on it. A 1980 SC that Ive had a little over three years now and am happy with. But with a little more knowldge and experience now, And the contacts that I've made in the community I'm sure that now I could track down a nicer car for the money. The hunt can be part of the fun.

I seem to remember some posts here from S A. so maybe you will be hearing from folks from your part of the world and end up getting connected to the Porsche loving folks there. That can be a big help in tracking down the best car available.

At any rate, welcome and good luck in your search.

Cheers Richard

PS Check out the DDK forum based in the UK. lots of knowldge there of the RHD cars.
PPS If you could add from "South Africa" to your title it might help get the attention of others from there.