Engine start problems after service & CHT sensor upgrade

[philikon]

Originally Posted by Elombard

I noticed that getting the dizzy cap on is a bit of an excercise, did it get set down on their tight? maybe one side is loose and not getting good contact?

Yeah, distributor cap is on there nice and tight. I mean, the car *has* run after sitting for periods of time.

[dshepp806]

The only way you had an overfill of oil with a 9 quart add is to not have removed all oil from the 2 drain points. I'm a bit lost on how he could have overfilled it. Did I miss something?

Doyle

[philikon]

Originally Posted by dshepp806

The only way you had an overfill of oil with a 9 quart add is to not have removed all oil from the 2 drain points. I'm a bit lost on how he could have overfilled it. Did I miss something?

I definitely drained both the crankcase and the tank. Thoroughly. I then filled 10.5 quarts because that's what the Bentley said. I wasn't even sure whether it would take all of it at once, so I searched the interwebs and some forum post said "oh yeah, it'll take the whole 10 quarts in one gulp". So I was like, ok, let's do this.

I guess the overfill is because some of the oil remains in the front oil cooler which is included in the capacity? (I'm a bit annoyed by the Bentley for skipping details like this. It does this all the time... What do y'all use for instructions?)

Going to pick up new plugs after work since my cleaning obviously didn't work and then we'll see.

[dshepp806]

I'm not quite sure I agree as to oil cooler/lines amounts as related to oil changes.

Of course, for me, it's a '89 so some things may be different. But, she will take 10.5 quarts on EVERY changeout,..resulting in level-ground, running temp, at idle,..MID MARK levels on the stick. Regardless, I still load 10 quarts on the changeout then run the sheeit out of her for a while,..then slowly add what's needed to make the stick happy. My MAIN rule of thumb is to NOT add oil until I have nice toasty send/return lines AT the front cooler. Only THEN do I worship the stick.

True that the system oil capacity is "larger" than what one can extract (as you mentioned: the front running lines/cooler content),...but, after extracting all oil from the 2 points, it's amazing that one would experience an "overfill" at 9 quarts !!!!!!!!!! (and that's including any "oil remnants elsewhere in the system")...

What am I missing here? Is there that much difference on a '84?

Anyone else here experienced an overfill condition at ONLY 9 quarts, on a Carrera?

BEST!

Doyle

[dshepp806]

Of course, the above process would include installing a NEW oil filter (just saying)..

Doyle

[philikon]

New plugs installed, the car runs! The white/blue smoke disappeared after a few seconds, so that's good.

It did, however, show the same bouncy idle that I was seeing yesterday: alternating between 1k and 2k during warm up and then as it warmed up, it zeroed in on 2k. Guess I either didn't clean the AFM and ICV thoroughly enough or I ****ed them up with the overfill.

When I step on the throttle, it chokes as if it's missing and black smoke comes out the tail pipe. So something's definitely messed up.

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by dshepp806

Anyone else here experienced an overfill condition at ONLY 9 quarts, on a Carrera?

He didn't add 9 quarts. He added 10.5 quarts.

I only get out about 9 quarts when I drain mine. I put in 9 (sometimes more, but not more than 9.5 quarts) to get it to halfway between the marks. I drain both the tank and the sump, but not the oil cooler or the oil cooler lines.

On my car, 10.5 quarts would be a very serious overfill.

Edit: Adding 10.5 (in addition to what's already still in the system) would be a serious overfill.

[dshepp806]

As to documents (instructions),..I was able to find a Porsche Service manual for a 1989 Carrera on Fleabay (CD),..very affordable,..and the real deal...

Now I get to research elements, side by side, as related to the Bentley Manual.

I would add (from some time ago) that the Bentley Website does provide corrections to errors that were previously published,..it may bode well to check which Bentley Rev you (and all else) are running......... I would guess that they correct the errors in subsequent runs, but am not sure. Nor am I sure that that they've ID'd "ALL" errors that DO exist !!!!!!!!!

Best!

Doyle

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by philikon

New plugs installed, the car runs! The white/blue smoke disappeared after a few seconds, so that's good.

It did, however, show the same bouncy idle that I was seeing yesterday: alternating between 1k and 2k during warm up and then as it warmed up, it zeroed in on 2k. Guess I either didn't clean the AFM and ICV thoroughly enough or I ****ed them up with the overfill.

When I step on the throttle, it chokes as if it's missing and black smoke comes out the tail pipe. So something's definitely messed up.

If I were guessing, I'd guess "really rich mixture". Clean the AFM and ICV again, and see what happens. I'm shooting in the dark now, because I don't know how your overfill might have affected all the components.

[JJ 911SC]

Originally Posted by dshepp806

... I would add (from some time ago) that the Bentley Website does provide corrections to errors that were previously published,..it may bode well to check which Bentley Rev you (and all else) are running......... I would guess that they correct the errors in subsequent runs, but am not sure. Nor am I sure that that they've ID'd "ALL" errors that DO exist !!!!!!!!!

Best!

Doyle

Nobody is immune to errors as they are human by-product... 101 Projects for your Porsche 911: Corrections & Updates

[dshepp806]

I'm sorry,..I see my error in post #6.

I guess the question would now go to Eric as to the "9 quart overfill" issue,..as well as philicon's "10.5 quart overfill", as well.

10.5 quarts is no where near an overfill on a 1989 (much LESS a "serious" overfill),..I can say that for sure, being someone who owns a daily driver that sees new oil (and filter) every 3K miles.,..measuring oil levels correctly (again: front lines nice and toasty), I can assure you (in my case) I'd probably NOT even see the frikin oil line (barely, at best) on the stick with a 9 quart load. I think I remember seeing a VERY low oil level (in the early days, that is) when I DID drop 9 quarts in her then added as necc'y. Sometimes, she would take ~ 10.3 quarts,.....

I've never measured the oil amount extracted on an oil change, but surely that would answer the (soecific) question, eh?

Otherwise, I trust my oil stick, exclusively.

Thanks for the correction, Eric.

Best,

Doyle

[dshepp806]

Originally Posted by JJ 911SC

Nobody is immune to errors as they are human by-product... 101 Projects for your Porsche 911: Corrections & Updates

Precisely! Certainly: no one.

Good catch, BTW. Any other sources should be verified, as well.

Yes: human (or, homosapiens [better said])

THANKS!

Doyle

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by dshepp806

Otherwise, I trust my oil stick, exclusively.

This is the absolute best advice.

So, on my first change, I purchased a new oil pan that could hold 3 gallons. Since it was made of plastic, it was very easy to mark the level of used oil. I poured the old oil down the storm drain and wiped out the pan with young kittens.

I then filled the pan with water to the mark, and poured it into a 3-gallon bucket marked off in quarts. I did this on the first change to know how much oil came out, so I knew approx. how much to put in. It came out just shy of 9 quarts used oil. So, I refilled with 8.5 quarts, and ran the car to get it up to temp, and found I needed just a little over 0.5 quart to bring it to the mid-point between the lines.

Subsequent changes (without the measuring) have been the same.















(No I do not pour oil down storm drains. I save the oil in a container to be sent for recycling. And no kittens were used as shop rags. Only shop rags were used for shop rags.)

[philikon]

Well, I consider this to be a lesson learned, for sure. Going to clean the AFM and ICV again, more thoroughly.

Oh, btw, it won't start anymore AGAIN. Sigh...

[dshepp806]

Any other 85's out there that use (only) 9 quarts on the changeout?

So far the lessoned (assumedly) learned is that there's a huge difference between 1985 and 1989. (for me)

Best,

Doyle

[JJ 911SC]

Originally Posted by philikon

Well, I consider this to be a lesson learned, for sure. Going to clean the AFM and ICV again, more thoroughly.

Oh, btw, it won't start anymore AGAIN. Sigh...

Sound like you got an intermittent electrical problem that is not related to your oil overfill...

[philikon]

Originally Posted by JJ 911SC

Sound like you got an intermittent electrical problem that is not related to your oil overfill...

How right you are!

Thinking the same thing I retraced my steps. Since I had changed the CHT sensor as part of this service, I went to check what the ECU was "seeing" of the CHT signal. Turns out: it wasn't! The connection was wide open. Judging from reports on the interwebs, this is a likely culprit for the engine not wanting to start up when it's anything other than stone cold. Also, running like ****.

I then did a simple test on the connectors in the engine compartment and it turns out the ground prong wasn't making a connection. My guess is corrosion since it had never been used until now. I hot-wired the connectors and gave it a separate ground, and voila, the car started right up and it's running JUST FINE. Purrs like a kitten.

Now I just gotta fix it for realz. Fortunately Bosch systems from the 80s are all the same and we've got an couple of old BMW E30 wiring harnesses lying around in the shop...

Thanks everybody for the support! The continuous input was very helpful in verifying (or sometimes refute) my assumptions.

[philikon]

In case anybody's interested, here's the thing I cobbled together from the old sensor's cable and a connector stolen off an E30's wiring harness:



And this is what it looks like installed in the car:



In case you can't see, I stole the ground off the cable-holding bracket on the bottom right.

[SilberUrS6]

Excellent work.