Performance Tuning - The Myth -

[CCM911]

I have no dog in this fight either, but I am failing to see where there is even a thread of "Malicious Intent" in the initial post. An "opinion" is just that, an "opinion".

Is there a history here of which us newer folks may not be aware?

[island911]

Yeah, I think that Loren works (worked?) in a similar industry as Steve Wong. ...but I wouldn't call it malicious intent. I mean, the "hey, do you like your chip too?" fawning threads are a bit ghey. ...right? ...you don't see threads on SC owners jumping up and down with glee about disconnecting the O2 sensor and tweaking the timing and mixture. ...maybe because that mod doesn't cost as much. -dunno...

[Lorenfb]

"Well made DME performance chips are more sophisticated than that."

- dbcooper -

Really? And tell us how.

"The maps in DME chips are a wonderful place to refine the tuning of a 911 engine."

- dbcooper -

And varying the maps is how the dyno results were produced, i.e. from varying both
the ignition and fuel maps independently, i.e. only one variable is changed between
dyno runs. That's not like what one is presented with when one views a 'before' and
'after' of a stock chip versus a 'performance' chip, i.e. It appears that so-called
overall 'tuning' produces significant results. Re-read the main issue of the initial
post.

[CCM911]

Originally Posted by island911

Yeah, I think that Loren works (worked?) in a similar industry as Steve Wong. ...but I wouldn't call it malicious intent. I mean, the "hey, do you like your chip too?" fawning threads are a bit ghey. ...right? ...you don't see threads on SC owners jumping up and down with glee about disconnecting the O2 sensor and tweaking the timing and mixture. ...maybe because that mod doesn't cost as much. -dunno...

More back slapping and a$$ patting going on in those chip threads than is seen in professional sports. And yes, it is totally ghey.

Thanks for the refreshing dose of honesty in your reply.

[HawgRyder]

The one thing I find funny..or perhaps amusing..is that the "chips" themselves are less than $5.00 each to buy in bulk.
They are just programmed memory circuits.
The real secret is in what has been put into that memory...some have had a lot of time and effort... and the programmer is looking to receive payment for his/her work.
I would like to see a truly "programmable" chip come into the industry...one that had multiple settings...grocery getter/Dad's street/mild race/all out race .... sort of thing.
Or perhaps one that lets you choose your MPG (and you live with the performance it gives).
Ah the possibilities.
Bob

[prebordao]

Originally Posted by HawgRyder

I would like to see a truly "programmable" chip come into the industry...one that had multiple settings...grocery getter/Dad's street/mild race/all out race .... sort of thing.
Or perhaps one that lets you choose your MPG (and you live with the performance it gives).
Ah the possibilities.
Bob

It's been / being done elsewhere... For the motronic in the 3.2 shouldn't be too hard if you don't mind shutting off the engine between map switches...

[CCM911]

Originally Posted by HawgRyder

I would like to see a truly "programmable" chip come into the industry...one that had multiple settings...grocery getter/Dad's street/mild race/all out race .... sort of thing.
Bob

This has been on the market for years. A buddy of mine had one for an older Audi S4, and it had like five or six settings that were changed by using a transmitter that looked like a key-chain sized Garage door opener. It even had a "Valet" setting, so the young punks couldn't take the car for a beating.

[island911]

to extrapolate further, I look (with amazement) at the sensing information and programability of of the systems on my Cayenne thru the Durametrics port. ..Hooked up to a PC you pull up ..EGTs (multiple), timing, intke temps and pressure...etc (huge list of variables) all mapping in real time. If I wanted, I could put up a command center in the car that looked like a NASA operation.

So, IMO, the future is already here. ..this new stuff makes chip mapping look like quaint old rug weaving. ...or some such.

...not that there's anything Wong with old rug weaving.

[Big Jon Jacobs]

Originally Posted by car 311

getting out the popcorn.....

Popping the popcorn as I type this. This is going to be very interesting!

[axl911]

Do the 3.2 Motronic in the 911s have knock control or something to pull timing back if the engine knock when a performance chip is installed?

[Lorenfb]

"I look (with amazement) at the sensing information and programability of of the systems on my Cayenne thru the Durametrics port. ."

There's no programming available thru the use of the Durametrics diagnostic software.
It's just basically an expanded OBDII capability for reading module data and resetting
fault codes. Even the factory PIWIS tester has no direct programming capability for
modifying maps.

"Do the 3.2 Motronic in the 911s have knock control or something to pull timing back if the engine knock when a performance chip is installed?"

No, and that's the BIG problem when tweaking the timing, i.e. No safety control!

[RarlyL8]

The original statement is grossly oversimplified.
Engine performance tuning is the act of optimizing the parameters of combustion as controlled by the OEM fuel, valve timing and ignition systems.
For some applications, specifically more modern cars with engine management systems, there may not be much performance tuning left on the table. For others, such as old CIS engines with mechanical ignition distributors there are very significant gains to be made without pushing the limits of reliability.
If the original statement is an attack on the performance chip industry then that verbiage needs to be added for clarification.

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by RarlyL8

The original statement is grossly oversimplified.
Engine performance tuning is the act of optimizing the parameters of combustion as controlled by the OEM fuel, valve timing and ignition systems.
For some applications, specifically more modern cars with engine management systems, there may not be much performance tuning left on the table. For others, such as old CIS engines with mechanical ignition distributors there are very significant gains to be made without pushing the limits of reliability.
If the original statement is an attack on the performance chip industry then that verbiage needs to be added for clarification.

Then there's the discussion that Loren completely avoids. And for good reason.

What about the 3.2 RoW motors? Where did all that extra HP come from? From upgraded (stronger) internals? More agressive timing maps? And why, in Porsche's obviously perfect wisdom, would they "compromise" reliability for the RoW models, but leave the U.S. models as paragons of engine longevity? Maybe PAG just hates everyone but Americans? I mean, if we're going to throw out completely unfound speculation, let's go ALL the way, right?

Then there's the small matter of demonstrated failures. Another area where Loren seems to practice a little bit of avoidance.

I will now predict some personal attacks by Loren, along with some cagey avoidance, subject change and re-iteration of hazy "logic".

[CCM911]

Originally Posted by SilberUrS6

What about the 3.2 RoW motors? Where did all that extra HP come from? From upgraded (stronger) internals? More agressive timing maps?

That extra horsepower came from different pistons and cams as far as I have read. It was definitely not just a "chip tweek".

[juanbenae]

Originally Posted by CCM911

That extra horsepower came from different pistons and cams as far as I have read. It was definitely not just a "chip tweek".

pistons for sure creating high compression. i think the cams were the same.

[RWebb]

I thought performance tuning meant getting the jets right on your Webers

[Lorenfb]

"Engine performance tuning is the act of optimizing the parameters of combustion as controlled by the OEM fuel, valve timing and ignition systems."

And that's called engine performance modification (engine mods). Performance
tuning is typically tweaking of the engine management system, i.e. the ECM
which controls the fuel and ignition or in the pre-ECM days re-'curving' the
distributor timing or re-jetting the carbs.

[Hydrocket]

I pretty much agree with the "thesis" of his statement, having personally tuned my Supra. However, in that case there were quite a few products readily available to do the tuning with no requirement to burn a chip. In addition, I had the ability to do logs while driving to assess driveability after the initial tunes were (done on a dyno) to get it close.

In the case of my 1986 911, what equipment would be required to do it myself? Are they readily available? And cost effective? I'm guessing not.

So in this case, a chip is they way to go simply because the equipment required is a bit out of reach for most owners (I would guess) despite the owner likely being able to tune it themselves. Whether you chose a Wong chip (more expensive option) or a an FR Wilk PowerProm chip (more reasonable option) it's just more cost effective than getting the equipment and doing it yourself. This might exclude racers who frequently mod and /or tune their car based on track conditions. But for the average enthusiast a chip is easier and cheaper.

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by car 311

pistons for sure creating high compression. i think the cams were the same.

OK, you're half-way there. The RoW cars have higher compression. Higher compression motors have draw-backs - ones in common with lower-compression motors that have more advance dialed in.

Hmmm, same motors (except the HC pistons), except one is dangerously (???) compromised by running more advance than what it ran coming from the factory.

That's a head-scratcher, for sure.

No. More like a head-shaker.

[ant7]

Originally Posted by Hydrocket

I pretty much agree with the "thesis" of his statement, having personally tuned my Supra. However, in that case there were quite a few products readily available to do the tuning with no requirement to burn a chip. In addition, I had the ability to do logs while driving to assess driveability after the initial tunes were (done on a dyno) to get it close.

In the case of my 1986 911, what equipment would be required to do it myself? Are they readily available? And cost effective? I'm guessing not.

So in this case, a chip is they way to go simply because the equipment required is a bit out of reach for most owners (I would guess) despite the owner likely being able to tune it themselves. Whether you chose a Wong chip (more expensive option) or a an FR Wilk PowerProm chip (more reasonable option) it's just more cost effective than getting the equipment and doing it yourself. This might exclude racers who frequently mod and /or tune their car based on track conditions. But for the average enthusiast a chip is easier and cheaper.

I think you have summed things up pretty well here,
I would like to think that even the least mechanical or technicaly minded here understand that you cannot get something for nothing, The reprogramed chips on offer from for eg'; Steve Wong just take advantage of the extra potential that is already there by fine tuning and carefully optomising the parameters within the MAP program' in conjunction with the fuel available.
Its not magic, yes, sure, the basic eprom chip costs a few dollars, thats not what your paying for, its the use of someones gained knowledge and expertise, i am sure even Loren cant argue with that.
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