Porsche 911 SC Starter Fails... or does it?

[OsoMoore]

Last week, I set out on my cross-country adventure and drove from Milwaukee to Chicago to South Bend (Indiana) on my way towards Ontario, Canada.

In Detroit I stopped for gas, and the car wouldn't start. I eliminated most of the possible issues, and determined the issue was related to the starter motor. We push-started the car and drove it 4 hours home to my parents (without stopping the engine), and stole their car for the rest of the trip. At this point the car didn't turn over, although I believe I could hear the solenoid click.

When we returned to my parents' today, the car started without any issues. We drove it around and stopped and started it hot and cold without issues.

I now need to determine one thing. Will my starter fail again? I don't know exactly what starter-related component was failing, and its not failing now, so I don't know how to "fix" it.

Has anyone else had experience with starters working intermittently? I would like to take the car on another trip next weekend but I don't want to end up needing a push-start while parallel parked.

[Porchcar guy]

Park on a hill ...always :=)

[spuggy]

Originally Posted by OsoMoore

I now need to determine one thing. Will my starter fail again? I don't know exactly what starter-related component was failing, and its not failing now, so I don't know how to "fix" it.

The problem is either that:

A) the solenoid is old and sticking (perhaps gummed up with old grease) - in which case the "side of the road" remedy is to hit it to free it off - or

B) the infamous "yellow wire" to the solenoid is either not passing 12V, or the voltage drop is such that it is not passing sufficient current to engage the solenoid (either is a problem - you can't just test connectivity).. Parking on a hill is good advice for this, actually

(A) is easy; replace/rebuild the starter.

If it happens again, it's (B) - and you get to replace the ground straps, clean/spread all your connectors (pay special attention to the buikhead plug/socket from the ignition switch and the 14-pin plug in the engine bay, perhaps replace the electrical portion of the ignition switch and generally mess about.

It's a truism that you can't ever say that you've fixed an intermittent issue - just that it hasn't happened since. When the problem becomes 100% and you're stranded - then it's really easy to trouble-shoot and fix...

Just make sure you what you need to fix it, and you'll be in good shape when you get stranded. I had a good starter, new ground straps, replaced the ignition - still failed. Flat-bedded to the wrench - worked when it got there. Joy.

Next time it failed, I fixed it myself (it was either the ignition harness/bulkhead plug or the 14 pin connector in the engine bay), and it hasn't had the problem since (4 years, 10's of 1000's of miles).

[pete3799]

Clean the ground strap between the trans. and body.

[OsoMoore]

My 101 projects book didn't tell me where the starter was, but I have now figured it out. I'll try the "hit it" approach if it happens again. Meanwhile, I'll take a look at my yellow wire and see how its condition looks.

I'm headed to my 10th class reunion, so a failure would be rather embarrassing.

EDIT: I'll take a look at that ground strap as well then. Scrub it with some steel wool and soap?

[OsoMoore]

Related question: Where exactly is the starter? My 101 projects book doesn't tell me and my bentley manual is still at home. Some googling has indicated its somewhere around the right CV joint... can I easily get at it to tap it when I'm stuck in a parking lot somewhere?

[G450X]

'82 SC with 165k miles. It will start & run great 99% of the time. Being hot or cold makes no difference, sometimes it will click while cold in the garage, or while hot after a run. Relatively new battery and starter that are on a tender.

I had a worn key and cut a new one which seemed to help, but I know it's an electrical issue of sorts. I "accidentally" tried a little battery booster product after a recent episode, and it fired right up. It happened yesterday and the booster fired it up.

I tried many recommended things (check fuse panels, replaced electrical portion of switch, ground strap cleaned, chased many wires), but I think the hot start relay kit (Pelican $23.95) will cure it until I find the actual problem. I'm saving for a rebuild, and I plan an intensive wire check when I pull the engine. In the meantime the little booster stays in the trunk!

[schumicat]

it on the passenger side top of the transmission. you can't see if from the engine compartment.

it is a common starter failure mode to have the starter work fine sometimes and other times it won't or it requires multiple attempts to engage, over time it works on first try less and less often until it stops working completely. I have had 2-3 starters fail in other cars that manner.

Originally Posted by OsoMoore

Related question: Where exactly is the starter? My 101 projects book doesn't tell me and my bentley manual is still at home. Some googling has indicated its somewhere around the right CV joint... can I easily get at it to tap it when I'm stuck in a parking lot somewhere?

[GH85Carrera]

My Carrera factory starter will get stubborn when it is heat soaked. Around town and even a day at the autocross is no problem. After many hours on the road in HOT conditions is will get stubborn. I can squirt water on it and it will spin just fine. I replaced it this spring with a rebuit unit and this summer on a 3,500 mile trip to Salt Lake City in 104 degree heat, it started every time with no issues at all. The old starter need a rebuild and the bearings are old and tired. Getting the bearings replaced is the hard part.

[mpetry]

The lightweight starter is an excellent alternative to a "rebuilt" starter of unknown provenance. Remember on these cars all the current to the starter goes thru the keyswitch, and those contacts do wear.

The lightweight starter draws less current, weighs less, and you can use a small battery (PC 645). What's not to like ?

[JAR0023]

This was my first DIY with my '86. Discovered the heat soak, no-start condition in BFE New Mexico right in the middle of our 2400 mile trip home. Mine was very consistent. If the engine was hot I had about a 20 minute window of opportunity. Let the car sit any longer than 20 minutes and you might as well let it sit for three hours as it wasn't going to start.

For those you you that recommend the wack the starter fix. How the hell you you reach it? My car is so low I'm not sure it would be possible.

I ended up replacing the original, twice rebuilt, starter with a Hi-Torque gear reduction unit from our host. No issues for 3k miles since. Bear hug method worked for me, but I have long arms.

J

[OsoMoore]

Originally Posted by JAR0023

For those you you that recommend the wack the starter fix. How the hell you you reach it? My car is so low I'm not sure it would be possible.

I have the same question. For now I'll order the hot-start kit and see how that goes.

[Porchcar guy]

[Discovered the heat soak, no-start condition in BFE New Mexico right in the middle of our 2400 mile trip home. [/QUOTE]

I resemble that remark being in NM :=)

[OsoMoore]

I did some more reading around on the forums, and here are my conclusions so far.
The issue probably resides in the solenoid itself. When it gets "heat soaked", expansion of the metal causes the solenoid to stick and not engage when voltage is applied. There are a few solutions for this issue.
1) New solenoid! This is expensive, and is usually accomplished by buying the complete high torque starter kit. A rebuilt starter often doesn't fix the issue.
2) Clean your own solenoid. Crack it open, lube it up, and rotate so it uses its currently unused contacts.
3) Clean up the wiring to the solenoid. Issues with resistance in the lines can lower the current that makes it to the solenoid. The lower current combined with the higher resistance due to heat results in failure. Fixing the wiring increases the power and allows a hot starter to start.
4) Add a hot start kit. This accomplishes the same goal as #3 - you get more power at the starter and it can overcome its stickiness.
5) Whack it with something! This doesn't work when you're sitting at a gas pump because you can't get under the car, but at the track you can probably jack the car up quickly and smack it. This is probably also a good way to burn your arm.

You might also be able to jump-start: your voltage will be higher because the 2nd car pushes you to ~14 volts, resulting in more juice to your starter.

My current plan? Clean the wiring up myself. Order the hot start kit and install it. When I have a few days, I'll pull apart the solenoid and clean it up. Meanwhile I'll be ready to push-start if I've had a long hot day of driving.

[JAR0023]

Originally Posted by Porchcar guy

[Discovered the heat soak, no-start condition in BFE New Mexico right in the middle of our 2400 mile trip home.

I resemble that remark being in NM :=)[/QUOTE]

No offense intended, after all I live in BFE Mississippi. Pucker factor was a little high though. I had my 9yo as a co-pilot and had owned the car all of 30 hours. Still I sent out a call for help to Pelican from my phone and had a reply from Los Cruces w/i half hour. Once I had a handle on it was OK. What a great forum this is. Anyone here finds themself an hour south of Memphis and I'll buy the beers.

J

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[Joe Bob]

I was driving cross country in my Nissan pick up....stopped in NM for gas and a quart of oil. Left the cap off.....oil flew everywhere. Took awhile to locate a cap that fit.....

Not as critical as a no start but enuff to pissmeoff.

[Porchcar guy]

Joe Bob, AND that was the fault of New Mexico :=). When I picked up Molly in LA I got 2 starts before the fuel pump relay took a crap and then had a sidewall failure near Victorville, California. Have to love CA as both my twin guys live there.....

[Joe Bob]

Yes it was....I was distracted by some major cute "Betty" and forgot to put the cap back on.....had to look at a map....Las Cruces. Found a cap, plugged it and then continued on Eastish on the 10. For the heck of it I went into Mexico, Juarez was worse than Tijuana......yikes.

[Porchcar guy]

Well, you were in a pick up and not your usual 911 bad boy or you could have offered her the ride of her life :=)

[vesnyder]

I had the same issue and it only happened twice, but similar conditions. I broke down and purchased one the hi-torque starters from our guest and I am hoping that solves the problem.