Can you get good illumination out of sugar scoops?

[tdskip]

Hi guys - my PO put H5 on my '74. I'm slowing returning to a factory exterior appearance. That means putting sugar scoops back on at some point, but since I actually drive her at a good clip on touring events I wanted to get your thoughts on if you can get good lighting out of those head lights and what I'd need to plan on to do that.

I'll be doing the headlight relays of course, but keen on your thoughts and experience here.

Thanks!

[Canada Kev]

Yeah, you don't get terribly good lighting from H5s. However, you can indeed get decent lighting from sugar scoops. Just using the sealed beam replacement E-code lights from Cibie, Hella or Bosch will get you illumination on par with Euro H4s. The bulbs in these H4 lights can be replaced with higher wattage units if desired, but the real upgrade is in the lens and reflector. Regardless of which bulbs you choose, I would highly recommend installing headlight relays. They're a cheap preventative measure against headlight switch and signal stalk failure or damage.

[Steve@Rennsport]

As Kevin said, the H5's are USA headlights and as such, the lens & reflector design are lousy, compared to an H4, E-code lamp.

You can install H4's of your preference and along with some high-wattage bulbs, will provide excellent lighting. Remember, you will need relays for anything over the normal 55/60w bulbs.

I use 90/100w or 100/150w bulbs (and upgraded wiring) for effect.

[56 nomad]

Originally Posted by Canada Kev

Yeah, you don't get terribly good lighting from H5s. However, you can indeed get decent lighting from sugar scoops. Just using the sealed beam replacement E-code lights from Cibie, Hella or Bosch will get you illumination on par with Euro H4s. The bulbs in these H4 lights can be replaced with higher wattage units if desired, but the real upgrade is in the lens and reflector. Regardless of which bulbs you choose, I would highly recommend installing headlight relays. They're a cheap preventative measure against headlight switch and signal stalk failure or damage.

hi, i take it the sealed beam is plug and play...do you still need the relays for these or is it only necessary for h-4 upgrade? is one brand better than another?
thanks, ben

[mpetry]

absolutely! Just buy a set of the Bosch or Hella H4 lamps in 7" size - they will cost you about $50 each. I suggest getting the Narva Rangepower bulbs - you can find them on ebay. I have had both the "Porsche" H4 inserts and the regular H4 plug ins and there is (to me) very little difference in the beam.

I will probably get flamed for this but I personally think the high wattage bulbs are overkill for normal driving, and you don't want to run them anyway without headlight relays to keep the current from going thru the switch.

Where I live it is REALLY dark and I have not been in a situation where the 60W high beam was inadequate. There may be some places where ambient lighting might cause you to run higher wattage bulbs, but give what we've read about fires from high current passing thru wires behind the dash, I'd make sure to look very carefully at your wiring, fusing, and relay setup before running 100W high beams.

Adjustment is critical to get the best performance from these lights. You want to set the top of the low beams so that they are approximately level when the car is loaded with a half tank of gas - and they should be pointed straight ahead. Find a shopping center or school where there's a light colored wall, park your car 50' away and adjust the beam pattern so it looks like the diagram below:



This adjustment will give you a good lighting pattern on low beam and keep the top of the beam out of the eyes of oncoming drivers.

[tdskip]

Thanks guys

[Steve@Rennsport]

Originally Posted by mpetry

I will probably get flamed for this but I personally think the high wattage bulbs are overkill for normal driving.

No flames here, but this issue is REALLY dependent on ones' age.

The older you get, the more light you need. If you are under 50, you will learn this soon enough,...

In most situations, its better to err on "too much", than not enough. That may keep you from unintentionally hitting someone.

[RoninLB]

I ran E-code Cibie with 130/100w Narva bulbs and big high heat receptacles + relays + etc

The 130/100w Narva lasted between 5k-8k night miles. For my rides it turned into a pia. I now run Osram 85/80w and can hardly see any difference in light. Also if you compare the Narva to the Osram you can see the Osram is a beefer bulb

I've also found that traditional lens adjustment doesn't work for my act. I start both lens straight ahead then raise both evenly till I get flashed. When flashed I'll drop only the drivers side lens till flashing stops. Then the driver's side lens is checked for sharp highway twisties to the left.
Next I'll move the passenger side lens over to the right till I have routine height for interstate signs dialed in sideways. Then I'll raise the interstate sign lens till it's perfect reading at high speeds.

If you're just doing city driving the above is mostly a waste.
If you're out on no light interstates and hit a 40-50 pound gator that flew off a big rig at 80 mph because you over drove your headlights and the black gator is little more than a shadow you don't need convincing.



ps: DOT lens suck

[Canada Kev]

Originally Posted by 56 nomad

hi, i take it the sealed beam is plug and play...do you still need the relays for these or is it only necessary for h-4 upgrade? is one brand better than another?
thanks, ben

In my opinion, EVERY car needs relays for their headlights regardless if they are factory stock or upgraded with high power bulbs. They're inexpensive and easy to install. The Jwest kit makes it too easy.

Without relays, all the current for the lights will travel up to the dash through your headlight and signal switches and then back down to your lights. This risks damage to your switches and increases the resistance in that circuit substantially. Resistance in wire is directly proportional to its length, meaning if the wire is twice as long, it has twice the resistance. In addition, if you increase the resistance by a factor of two, you will decrease the available power (watts) by half. With the relays mounted near the fuse panel, the circuit length is only from your battery to the relays and then to your lights - much shorter and avoids all that current through the switches.

[Canada Kev]

I used to run the the 100/90W bulbs. I was concerned more about the factory wire and it's ability to withstand the current flowing through. I switched to 85/80 watt bulbs and at the same time, I replaced my headlight lenses with new ones.

Holy, what a difference. I didn't think my lenses were all that sand blasted, but I guess they were. My light now is far better than it was with the 100/90s. So, I guess the moral of this is to make sure your lenses of the head lights are clean and not all pitted from road crap.

[RoninLB]

Originally Posted by Canada Kev

concerned more about the factory wire and it's ability to withstand the current flowing through.

I replaced my headlight lenses with new ones.

relay to high power bulb receptacle harness easy to upgrade to 14ga or 12ga

I use lens protectors that degrade light about 6-8% on new lens

[VFR750]

I use the sylvania super-ultra sealed beam. The 6024 with the highest K rating. Very bright. Much better than the standard sealed beam. So i think sugar scoops can be a viable choice, with the best sealed beam possible.

[DUK]

+1 on the sylvania silver star/ super ultra.

[RWebb]

restore to Euro style car with H-4s; no sugar scoops

[Canada Kev]

Originally Posted by RoninLB

relay to high power bulb receptacle harness easy to upgrade to 14ga or 12ga

I use lens protectors that degrade light about 6-8% on new lens

Yeah, I know it's not that tough. I just didn't want to do it right then and source ceramic plugs and stuff so I just put in the lower wattage 85/80 bulbs. I also fitted new lenses (which was a bit of a PITA with all the clips...) when I had the headlights out and it helped out a lot, with better illumination than just the 100 watt bulbs.

[Josh D]

restore to Euro style car with H-4s; no sugar scoops

X2. Sugar scoops look like somebody put a pair of Harry Potter glasses on a 911.

[mpetry]

Kanada Kev alludes to a very important point on the high wattage bulbs - if you don't have full current to them, the life of the bulbs is significantly degraded.

On rally cars, they run a relay to protect the switch, and the + wire to the bulbs comes right off the battery!

Again, given what we've heard about wiring in our cars, I'd look at wiring, relays, etc very carefully before running high current lamps.

[tdskip]

Thanks guys - great info and useful thread to have stored.

I hear you on the H4 but I wanted to try a factory look - easy to change out if I don't like it.

[DanielDudley]

Originally Posted by tdskip

Thanks guys - great info and useful thread to have stored.

I hear you on the H4 but I wanted to try a factory look - easy to change out if I don't like it.

I think the only negative to the sugar scoops is that they catch air and supposedly cause noticeable drag at speed. I expect that would have to be considerable speed.

[CurtEgerer]

The big problem with anything over about 85W for street driving is the reflection back into your eyes from traffic signs. Reflective white speed limit signs can be blinding with 100W lamps. FWIW: one of the sets of lights on my rally car has 170W lamps, daylight on pitch black forest roads!